Interview by Elana Freeland and featured in the Spring 2004 edition of MKzine
March 12, 2004
Rather than expound on theory, Marlene Bennett (M) asked an ex-client (B) who had undergone severe trauma-based mind control if she would be willing to talk about what her experience of therapy had been like. Insisting on anonymity, “B”was entirely candid about how much she gained from Bennett’s“non-technique.”
E: Would you call what the two of you did “deprogramming”?
M: I call it therapy or healing from trauma.Deprogramming was part of it.
E: How would you define deprogramming, and how does it differ from other types of therapy?
M: For me,deprogramming is trying to turn around anything that was forced as away to prevent a person from getting in touch with their past or remembering their own memories.
E: So it could be ritual abuse, satanic ritual abuse, government military mind control programming -- all of which have in common the intention to make a person not remember, as well as send the person’s mind in a direction other than what they might have chosen --in other words, to take their freedom from them. Does that sound right?
M: I would agree with that.
E: So deprogramming seems to have to do with unlocking and disengaging someone’s intent from another person? “B,”how do you see deprogramming and programming?
B: Programming is all about having something done to you, so it’s dehumanizing in its very nature. It’s about things being done to you and basically breaking you down to the point that you lose touch with that sense of your core self -- it just kind of breaks it off.Deprogramming is not the word I would use because I feel like my whole feeling has really been about letting go of people doing to me and learning to do for myself. Deprogramming is sort of like having the safety and support to know my own story in a safe environment. So it’s more about unfolding who I really am and letting the truth out. Just hearing about people deprogramming other people sounds like programming to me. [Laughs] It’s sort of a contradictory term because the last thing I needed was more being done to me. Plenty had been done to me of a psychological nature already. I wanted permission to be who I was and let my truth come out and have it honored, whether that was around the programming or any other aspect of what was happening for me in my healing.
E: Perhaps deprogramming might be compared to disengaging a clutch or a mechanical process of some sort, so that healing can begin to take hold.
B: I see my process more like a giant ball of yarn that is completely tangled in a big knot.Healing was more about untangling threads that prevented me from getting more freedom of movement within, internally, so that deprogramming and healing didn’t necessarily come one before the other. It was a more circular thing whose order was internally driven. What truth did I need to know at one point in time to allow me to move ahead and do what I could in my life today?The inner process was already inside of me and wasn’t driven from the outside.
E: Perhaps a therapist is like a midwife delivering a baby: the woman delivers the baby, the midwife is there to help the process.
B: Yeah, remind her of things to do -- breathe,that kind of thing. But the direction -- since it’s really all about reclaiming yourself -- has to come from within, and what a relief to discover that thereis a direction in there.
E: What is your history, “B”? What have you been through?
B: Well, I definitely was involved in government programming from about age two through at least eighteen. I never got to totally clear on the dates. As far as how the programming was defined, let’s say I consider myself a military vet without benefits. And of course dysfunctional
E: Was your family military?
B: Not on the surface, at least, but there are military connections.
E: Could your family be described as a multi generational incest family?
B: Yeah, I think that would work. [Laughs]
E: What about satanic ritual abuse?
B: Not so much. I think there’s a little bit,but it was almost the way some people are Christians and go to church only on Easter. So yeah, I was baptized in the blood, but it wasn’t a big part of my family. It was there in the history and so of course multiplicity was in the history. Certainly, there was contact with the military which allows for people to be screened for, then to be followed and tracked. I think that’s how my dad got connected for his stint. He went to college on the GI bill, so I imagine he was followed from that point on.
E: Because of his multiplicity?
B: Yeah, absolutely. Boot camp is programming,right? So it’s a great place to scan people.
E: And the multiplicity is useful for what reason?
B: All sorts of things. It’s about credibility.I also think that a lot of people who are into that stuff -- it’s their own private addiction. Programming is not necessarily that efficient. It takes an incredible amount of energy to program someone to that degree, so they must begetting off on it. They pretend that, ‘Oh, it’s spy games, but it's really them jerking themselves off, in my opinion. It’s not an efficient way to do things, there’s much better ways, but this country isn’t about that.It’s power-hungry and addicted to power.
E: So your programming took place between two and eighteen. What happened when you were eighteen?
B: Eventually, you become harder to control.You’re not at home and people slip away. You leave the program eventually and there’s newer, younger blood, and new people come in to do the programming --there’s a constant turnover.
E: But eighteen is young to let someone slip away.
B: I actually know numerous people who around that time got out.
E: What years are we talking about?
B: For me, that would have been 1962 through1978 or 1980. There might have been a little stuff after that point,but I think it got harder to get hold of me.
E: And they let you slip away?
B: Yeah. People can force you to do things,obviously -- I mean, that’s what this whole thing is about -- and it takes an incredible amount of energy to continue that, and it gets harder and harder.The same thing that made me a good candidate for programming made it easy for me to break away, because I’m an incredibly strong person with an incredibly strong life force. And it’s dangerous to be involved with those folks! [Laughs]So once I had a way to get away --
E: Did you get away through marriage?
B: No. I left home and quit responding to calls because usually people contact you through calls. Then the programming started to come undone. It’s not like I knew consciously that I was being contacted,but the parts of me that were being contacted didn’t respond.
E: Why do you think they weren’t responding?
B: Because we really didn’t want to die, and that’s been my truth my whole life. However effective the programming was, I didn’t hate myself as much as people intended for me to, and that’s why it’s such an inefficient way of doing things to begin with. It eventually comes unraveled. It’s really egotistical of the people involved to think that they can prevent everybody from telling their story the whole time. People are always talking their truth one way or another. Like my mom at the dinner table!She always used to tell all about how things were all dysfunctional and messed up in our home, but she would tell it in a dissociated way. Isn’t it interesting how that little girl came in and threw dirt in Dad’s work shed? She must be mad at her parents’ -- that kind of thing, when it’s all about Dad being at it again. She’s telling the truth at the dinner table in her own way;it never got snuffed out of her. Some things can’t be snuffed.
E: Are you in touch with your parents?
B: I wasn’t in contact with them for many years,and now I am again.
E: How is that?
B: It’s fine. They’re old now, in their seventies. It’s very grounding and keeps me in today. It’s just useful for me to [be in contact].
E: And with your siblings? Were they programmed?
B: Not as much, but yeah there was some stuff that happened with them, so it’s uncomfortable, like the family history which wasn’t so... sweet.
E: Have you come out to your siblings about your process?
B: Not in any big way. Basically, what I’ve said to them is, ‘If you want to know, all you have to do is look inside,’and that’s where I’ve left it. With my parents, if they didn’t have compassion and real caring when I was a little girl, I know now it’s not going to happen in this
lifetime.I’ve seen healing on their paths, it’s just different from mine. My sister too has healing in her religion, but it doesn’t involve knowing her story.
E: Can you have a genuine religious life without being genuine?
B: I think you can be genuine in the present, in the moment, to whatever ability -- I mean, we all have our limitations,so yeah, I think so. There’s ways that programming or any kind of trauma that hasn’t been dealt with leaves personal blind spots. Everybody has blind spots,it’s just a matter of degree.
E: And your other sibling is a brother?
B: I have two younger brothers.
E: And how are they?
B: They’re... I don’t know, they felt like they were part of a whole other family. I don’t know how involved they were in the stuff going on at home. Of course, you’re taught to perpetrate when your dad does, so in that sense... Whether they were taken out to be programmed,I don’t think so.
E: Why do you think you were chosen over the others for military programming?
B: Probably because I’m female, and because of my personality profile. [Programming is] very scientific. I mean, they screen people in the military. There’s all sorts of data involved. If you’ve been tortured continuously for the last however many years, people are keeping track of it, so it’s a pretty well-known process.
E: Did your father prepare you?
B: I wouldn’t say that what he did was to prepare me. I think he’s a perp.
E: Did he abuse your sister, too?
B: Absolutely. He also got victims in exchange.
E: He likes children?
B: No, he actually likes killing women, but he’ll never get caught because he has government connections. I think there are many people like him. They have habits, and then they get documented,and then you’re part of the family. [Laughs]
E: Do you think he was trained by your paternal grandfather?
B: Oh gosh, I’m not entirely sure about this part of the story. I think there was some cult stuff in the family,probably from my paternal grandmother’s family. But because of when he grew up,he was sent away from home to work at a farm somewhere when he was five, and I know some shit went down then...
E: And your mother?
B: She had a lot of sexual abuse in her home.She’s not a multiple, but she didn’t have any choices. My dad was really a very scary person, so she just stayed under water the whole time. He doesn’t have that internal conflict.
E: Was their marriage set up?
B: They met at college. He was on the GI bill --I’m sure he’d already been tagged as somebody useful.
E: So the programming you went through from two to eighteen -- do you think the military rented you from your parents,or did they purchase you?
B: I would say there was a certain amount of extortion: ‘We have pictures, we have this information on you that will get released if you don’t’ -- that kind of thing. Also, of course, I think almost everybody as a child being programmed does a certain amount of maintaining that kind
of extortion-type structure by participating sexually with adults.Children are taken to the big functions -- I think extortion is how they keep it under lock.
E: And that would answer the people who ask,“How could they have kept such a secret all these years?”
B: My answer to that is fear and mass denial,because on some level everybody knows the truth about what’s happening in this country. It’s like part of this country is this really big scary dictatorship,and most everybody knows it on some level. They’re just glad it’s not happening to them and so they keep it down, keep it down by not seeing it. I think it comes out in the fierceness with which certain situations call for scapegoating: ‘Oh, that person’s awful, we’ve got to put their head on the chopping block and execute them. We won’t have any of that in this country.’
E: Like Gary Ridgeway?
B: Those guys are cult guys gone bad, created for a purpose but then go wild. They’re out killing on their own for their own pleasure, when they’re only supposed to be working for The Man. That’s what I’m saying. Even the sociopaths are not under total control. Maybe it helps to create a climate of fear, but they’re rodeo cowboys off the program, man. [Laughs]
E: You are very adept at scoping out an aerial view on how the whole mind control thing works.
B: It depends on where you meet survivors. If you’re meeting people in a situation where things are still being done to them,they’re not really on their healing path yet or claiming their own power, so it’s hard to see the big picture under those circumstances. But I know people who have a sense of the big picture. But for whatever reason, I don’t understand what’s happening with some people for whom the victim role becomes a lifestyle. They may have good reasons not to go there [childhood memories], so they just stay where they are and do the best they can without letting go of that identity.
E: Did you live near big military bases?
B: Yes, I’ve lived near bases. My dad’s work was affiliated with the military-industrial complex. But where does the government end and the corporate end of the military begin? Also, the mob. They all link together, so when are you dealing with which entity? [Laughs]The programming was definitely on bases.
E: You were always moving?
B: We moved a lot when I was younger, but not later. Then, I was moved around quite a bit in terms of programming,doing jobs or being programmed or both.
E: Was yours a typical spy job? Were you programmed for sex, as well?
B: Mostly violence, killing, but some sex, of course, including sex for my handlers. [Laughs] It’s part of what they can do, they’re so power-hungry. Sexual abuse is a great way to strip away your sense of self-worth, which is also part of the programming. But hey,they get off on it,
E: Were you programmed for extraordinary memory capacities, too?
B: I don’t think so. I was involved in violence, a lot of times war crimes. I spent time in Vietnam and Central America, and locally I’d be called out. There was a contact at my high school. I was also used for mob jobs.
I think that Vietnam taught them a lot --you know, the dangerous villages and the kids with bombs on them. I think they wanted their own dangerous women and kids [laughs], so there you go.
E: When you were in therapy, how did you deal with all the memories of killing?
B: That took me the longest. I think the hardest thing about it is that I learned to enjoy it by the end. Fortunately, I never got addicted. I was never one of those people who wanted to do it outside because I had a lot of internal conflict, too. How could I deal with the fact that
E: How did you find peace?
B: [Sighs] I came to accept that I was a human being and that we all come here with potentials. I had another friend who went through a phase where she was fascinated with feral children abandoned and then raised by wolves who would think of themselves as wolves. Thinking about those children and my experience – “our” personalities are so malleable, and there’s something underneath them, too, that can be shaped in so many different ways. I really got actualized in an extremely negative way, in a way that most people don’t experience in this life. That happened, but I also have other potentialsto be actualized. So from this point on, it’s really about choice and what I choose. Those things didn’t feel like choice to me. You really can force someone for a period of time to do things they don’t want to do, that go against their core -- at least if you get them when they’re children.In someways the programmers were inside of me and I kind of had to go outside of my view of what life is in a bigger sense. It’s really about choice, and now I choose to be in this moment.
E: When Kathleen Sullivan, in her book, Unshackled, talked about dealing with the killing she had been programmed to do, she realized that the part of her that had done it could be accepted for the skill and courage it had, and incorporated into herself as part of herself.
B: It’s part of me, it’s me, it’s part of my potential, it’s actually an actualized part of my potential. I have a lot of blood on my hands. In a way, during that time I was a gun that someone chose to fire because they had so dehumanized me that they made me into a weapon. And yet I am a human, and so a human being was there, as well. Given all of that,am I going to go on? Knowing that I have such a strong life force,which why I was perfect for the job, I can put that self to use for me now and say,‘Okay,now I get to choose how I use my skills and talents.’
M: It was painful to watch “B” go through that part of therapy (getting in touching with aspects of having to kill). I believe that it is important for clients to try to take a step back from what they did and honor themselves for what they had to do to survive. Only when the client can appreciate and thank that part of themselves can one truly heal.
B: I went to a conference put on by a ritual abuse survivors newsletter, where all the assassins got together [laughs]and talked. It was really a healing moment to be in a room of people talking about how to embrace that sphere.
There are many vets out there in this world and we’re making more every day who’ll have to deal with the same things. That’s the way it is, but other vets get benefits and I get none. [Laughs] Where’s my pension?
E: All of those experimentees... What was done to you was for a government program and experimental, as well.
B: The horrendous thing about it is that that’s just the surface. For each one of me, hundreds and hundreds of people have died-- experimented to death, tortured to death -- to see at what point they break and then go past it. So many unreported war crimes and torture anddeath go
E: Among your memories, did you encounter actual Nazis during programming on military bases, Dr. Black, Dr. Green, etc.?
B: One of the programmers was Dr. Abernacht. I don’t know if this name has ever come up anywhere, and it might be a false one-- he’s a person I’ll remember. I know that so much of it did get transferred over from all of the doctors in the camps during World War Two --
E: Operation Paperclip.
B: That was such a huge time: deals were struck with the Mob and all those creeps from the camps. And what funded it? Sex work and drugs -- still does to this day. And arms. Sell arms and buy more arms to squelch the people we sold arms to. [Laughs]
E: Indeed, you have to have a good sense of humor in order to live in this country.
B: Or a good sense of denial. [Laughs again.]
E: The assassin, the part that kills, brings up the issue of integration. Among therapists are those who think you have to reintegrate and those who think you don’t and can just set up a dialogue among the different parts. What is your experience of integration?
B: Once again, for me my healing isn’t really about therapists and their dialogue about what they’re doing. That’s their problem. I love Marlene because her ego is not in the picture. It’s not about her and how fancy she is with some kind of sick fascination keeping track of how many personalities I have so she can put it in a book -- all those kinds of objectifying behaviors which I’m an expert at. I know an objectifying behavior when I see it because I was the ultimate object. That’s what trauma and programming are all about: the ultimate object, stripping away all humanity. I have integrated different parts, for sure, but it’s been a natural thing and no one did something to me and said, ‘Now, you need to integrate because I know what’s best for you, being that I’m the expert.’
E: Have all your parts integrated on their own,or --
B: I doubt that we’re completely integrated. My healing is about what I need to do to be fully present in my life today. I’m not going to work through every last memory -- there’s been way too much! I’ve worked through what I need to in order to have my life today. I don’t want my story to be only about these sicko’s. No, thank you. I would like to live for some things I want to do for me while I’m here -- what I came here to do, not their agenda.
E: Do you think there are any personalities inside of you that you haven’t heard from?
B: Ohhhh, possibly. I feel pretty comfortable that I’ve looked at the -- Stuff continues to happen, it’s so crazy living in this world, but it’s not so much about some story I don’t know about,it’s more about the context of all of it and feeling a part of living in the world -- you know, that legacy. For example, having this conversation, needing for it to be confidential. Here it is, first from my childhood so much was stolen,then many years of therapy stolen -- a huge piece of my story. It’s not a huge part of my conversation with most people because I would disappear as soon as my story showed up. My story would be so big and flashy that I wouldn’t be there, and I don’t want to deal with that. But then that creates tension and conflict.
E: What does?
B: Not being able to -- It’s basically, are you out or are you not out? Like if I go to a job interview, am I going to say,‘Oh, I was working on my government programming memories these last few years,how about hiring me?’ You’re talking about living in the world, finding work, making connections, being treated respectfully by other people and not having them assume if there’s a conflict that it’s about your history -- that kind of thing.
E: I would imagine that you don’t tell many people --
B: Exactly.
E: -- because a lot of people wouldn’t believe you in the first place.
B: Exactly, you’d lose credibility. So it keeps you silent. Trauma survivors of all sorts experience tension around oppression.Just being out about sexual abuse, you pay a price. It’s a huge secret because it’s so terrifying to people that they’d rather shut you out than hear about it. More than that, I think people can believe it but then they kind of turn you into a freak show just to get some distance. ‘Oh, aren’t you an interesting specimen.’ Then, it’s not so close to them.
E: Do you know many people who’ve been through this in your local area?
B: Uh-huh. I have a network, for sure. It’s amazing how people find each other, but they do. In fact, if you’re going to put anything in, such an important part of healing is to get that community going where you can be -- it’s invaluable. It’s also a great place to get feed back about your therapy. Psychiatrists programmed me for years.You’re in a vulnerable place when you start in on your process and are looking for help.There are a lot of people living on the fringes whose intentions aren’t necessarily so good. It’s important to have community you can check therapists out with and get information about good ways to get a therapist.
E: These people you’ve met locally -- did you meet them
B: One example is the 12-step food program --one person meets another...
E: Is it a wide spectrum -- house wives, office workers, professionals?
B: I tend to get connected more with people who are younger than me. It seems like they sprouted sooner, partly because of the whole therapy movement. People were getting in touch with their stories sooner because they had some place to go with them. Not every body ends upbeing your friend. I have some really wonderful relationships through that connection, but you have to have something else in common. [Laughs]
E: Are there many therapists around your area --
B: No, it’s extremely difficult to get good therapy. That’s why it’s extremely important to find someone with heart who is able to see you as a human being because you need that if you want to do your work -- that’s the most important thing, someone who can see you as a person. I know therapists bring skills to it, but if they can keep their ego out and hold the vision of you as a human being and not a specimen, you’ll get better. Your healing will happen for you. Be wary of people who are doing all sorts of little gibbedy-gabbedy things because they’re into it for their ego and not your recovery. It’s easy to get fooled, especially early on because you’re like, ‘Somebody help me, this horrible thing happened and I want theworld tostop, and everybody owes me!’ [Laughs] There are people happy to do it all for you, and those people aren’t your friends.
E: Marlene, what would you say your ‘non-technique’ is? Many therapists siphon these cases off as fast as they can because of fear of lawsuits, threatening calls, etc. So I know that you must be very committed in order to put yourself in harm’s way to some degree, and yet I understand that you really have no technique. Is that true?
M: Exactly. To begin with, I decided that if I was going to do this work I would have no fear, that somehow I would be guided through it spiritually, and that I would be protected. Basically, I have no fear and will not get caught up in fear. So if I decide to take a client on, I will do it without fear.
E: How do you manage to have no fear? Also, you mentioned the word ‘spiritual.’ What do you mean?
M: I just believe that I’m protected and I believe that with all my heart. I believe there are bigger forces than myself. I believe that, and let it go. I’m here to help human beings heal, and it is my job to help them find their way. When I do a consultation with them, I will tell them, ‘I do not know what needs to happen, but there is a part ofyou that knows what needs to happen.’ Basically, that is their subconscious. My job isto give them the resources to assist the subconscious and to follow the signs and directions and little things the subconscious will bring up toguide them along the way.
E: I see on your wall that you are a licensed hypnotherapist. Do you use questions, listening, and hypnotherapy to give guidance to the subconscious of the person to heal themselves?
M: Probably the most important thing I use is listening. I would say that I listen with my heart and not just my ears. I listen with 360 degrees. I listen on a lot of layers and levels. I try to not have any one idea of what needs to happen. I attempt to be open. I think my experience and education in hypnotherapy are extremely helpful, and alot of times I won’t work directly with hypnotherapy but my experience with it can be extremely helpful in that it can be done in a certain way that the person never actually goes under hypnosis but can help facilitate doing a lot of things to make connections. It can be used in a lot of different ways to help facilitate safety and connections with memories and stay connected with the safety and security of the here and now while a person is also connecting to memories.
E: By hypnosis, you’re not talking about deep trance?
M: It may or may not be.
E: So, “B,” how can you trust someone enough to go under hypnosis?
B: Well, I don’t think I really did much[of that] with Marlene. When I came here, I came from therapy that I considered to be inappropriate and not useful for me. So for a year, I don’t think I did anything. I had to make Marlene prove that she wasn’t trying to get anything from me. I just sat here hour after hour to see if she’d get upset. [Laughs] I talked but if she had an idea about something, I’d say, ‘No.’ [Laughsagain.] Then finally, I guess, she passed my test because I could see that it wasn’t about her making something happen so she could feel good about what she was doing, but it was really about what I needed to do, and it wasn’t just lip service. It’s easy to say that, it’s another thing to have the resources to actually offer that to people. It’s a wonderful gift and I feel very fortunate that I got hooked up with Marlene.
I guess what I’d done before that point that got me out of my difficult therapy situation was that I had made a commitment to myself to heal. This took me through and out of that place where I could eventually see the healing wasn’t happening. I was connected with other survivors and I was able to talk to them about my experience and have validation for the assessment that it wasn’t a healthy place.
[Memories of] people would come up, but forthem to come up it had to be a co-conscious event. I don’t think I ever lost time in Marlene’s presence, as it were. I wasn’t willing to do that andI don’t think it would have served me. I also think I came to trust my system as a whole and realize that even in those awful circumstances it always worked to help me through things, so I just set it to help me through my healing,too. What would be useful about me dissociating so completely from myself that I wasn’t in therapy with as much of me as possible? What healing could really happen under those circumstances? I know sometimes people have parts that come out without conscious awareness of “losing time,” but I think it’s much more useful if parts come out together. Marlene would invite me by saying,‘Do you want to go and look inside?’ That is often what she would ask. She’d start off like, ‘How’s it going?’ and I might say, ‘I’m upset with my cat,’ or whatever surface stuff, but then we’d take time to work with the invitation to look inside and see what was up.
E: [To Marlene] Is that the point at which there would perhaps be a light trance?
M: A lot of times it could be taking time to get quiet and relaxed and go find that feeling inside, and still stay connected to the security of the present. People who experience this kind of trauma are experts at dissociating. I don’t have to do that for them! I don’t have to help them get into a trance; they do that on their own. So me doing it for them is totally counter productive. Having the ability to do it on their own is productive because it empowers them, and that’s the whole reason for being in therapy.
B: That’s something now I can do for myself. If something’s up, all I need to do is stop and go look inside. I don’t have to go to therapy to find a savior. This is such a huge difference. When you’ve had somuch trauma, it gets back to that old rescuer-victim-perpetrator triangle. I’ve been all around that triangle for years. Healing is about letting go of those patterns, and that means I don’t need fixing.
E: And you had started to remember before you ever came to Marlene?
B: Absolutely.
E: [To Marlene] Does the ease with which someone can dissociate reveal that there might be more than meets the eye?
M: No. Everybody goes into light trance easily.
E: I’ve noticed how easily I go into a light trance when I drive -- probably not the best time to do so. But here’s been alot of criticism of hypnosis, especially the old image of ‘You are sleepy, count backward from ten’ -- the absolute power image of a man standing over you.
M: Exactly.
B: That’s programming, not deprogramming.
E: So a counterimage might be, ‘Relax and go to the feelings’?
M: It’s similar. It attempts to entitle a person to be able to stay connected to the feeling of security in the here and now and be able to feel more empowered to try to see their truth. As far as the deprogramming, it’s being able to assist them to connect with their own truth. Sometimes, there are things that have happened, things that have been said and done and forced on them to try to disconnect them from their own truth. My job is just to help facilitate them in being able to connect up with their own truth.
B: Marlene can’t give that truth to anybody, just like I can’t give Marlene her truth. My truth is inside of me. It’s not possible for another human being to do that for somebody else, but they can assist. Most of the time, the programming was melded in with other things.
E: What do you mean? Give me an example.
B: In order for me to be programmable, I had to learn to hate my life force, my love of life. I learned to hate it because it was used against me, so I was ashamed of how much I loved life. If I hadn’t wanted to be here so desperately, I wouldn’t have been programmed. I mean, I’ve done things to stay alive; otherwise, I wouldn’t have been a successful candidate. So you begin to hate the basic things about yourself, and that makes you even more susceptible to suggestions about who you are. Self-hatred is the legacy of all programming, because it’s not safe to be angry outwardly so you turn it inward. Sometimes,there were specific things like little switch points in my mind, triggers --especially at one point in time when I was dealing with a lot of the electrocution that was done as a part of my programming. There were places I traveled to that were just weirdly mechanical and seemed more than just programming. So weird! I remember one time falling into this place where my nerves were just wiped out, shot.
E: You could see an event, but --
B: I couldn’t see it because it was erased -- an erased spot in my brain. That was programming that felt like the synapses were rewired a little bit. I don’t know what Marlene did; I think she just sat there, probably kind of bored. [Laughs]
M: In a situation like that, I just do a little bit of relaxation so the subconscious can go back, connect, reroute, rewire, reconnect, and do whatever needs to bedone to erase anything that’s been said or done to reconnect. There are certain terms that I use...
B: It seemed like you were constantly inviting me to go deep within myself to figure out what I needed to do so that I could be more fully present in my life today. I think you may have used different wording, but basically that was the invitation over and over again because there’s always a new piece of work to be done. And just to have awitness, because there’s so much pain. Just to have a witness there to listen and see the devastation...
E: Is memory work utterly separate from the initial work of deprogramming? There are portions of programming which seem very mechanical.
B: That is such a small piece of my healing. I think people get fascinated [with the mechanics of programming]. It’s fine for them to be fascinated, and yet I don’t think that’s really where the healing happens. I disagree that you need to do deprogramming first.
E: I’ve never understood how memories can be kept separate from deprogramming, since the memories and feelings are, as you say, melded to it.
B: To me, it’s just more objectification. I’m a full human being first and foremost. My “system” did things to survive the trauma, and the reason I was able to become a multiple is because of health and strength, not disease. It’s an interesting thing: the people who aren’t able to split either end up dead or crazy and dysfunctional. [Multiplicity] is the best you can do in hard circumstances. That’s what I did.
M: And for me to take any kind of theory like [memories and feelings being separate from deprogramming] and try to pigeon-hole people in it is just so contradictory to me working with an individual and individual experiences.
B: And it’s not as interesting. I heard someone say trauma makes people all alike, but healing makes us all individuals. I think there’s a lot of truth in that. The trauma itself can be categorized, but if you’re really working with healing, healing is about people becoming who they are or their potential, right? Reclaiming who they came here to be, and letting go of other people’s agendas.
E: Marlene, is there a pattern to someone getting to the point where they can individually heal themselves? Trauma ends up being a pattern that indicates a dysfunction, whereas the healing process has to be individual. Do all clients have a different way of approaching healing,or do they all follow certain specified stages?
M: The healing process can vary for each person, but generally involves memories - understanding how the trauma impacted him or her, getting in touch with the emotions from the experiences and processing the intensity of their energy, integrating a more positive way of thinking about one self in those situations, and learning healthy ways to cope with difficult emotions are general stages.
E: “B” sounds to me like someone who was highly motivated and really working. You must get clients who don’t move as fast or as consciously.
B: [Laughs] I was so angry and distrustful that the trust phase lasted a long time for me.
M: [To B.] I must admit, you were one of my most challenging clients. [Laughs also.]
E: Marlene, you’ve mentioned that you have to turn away victims of ritual abuse and programming in order to protect your time. How big is this problem? It seems huge to me, much more huge than I ever imagined when I first became involved.
M: It is.
E: Are we talking about hundreds of thousands of people?
B: We have to -- enough to really impact the whole psyche of America. It’s there and everybody knows it’s there on some level, and that’s why it’s so powerful when George W. Bush pulls his fear card. Why is that so effective? Why is everybody so afraid? It’s not because of 9/11-- that was an awful event but that’s not why all that fear is out there.
M: Just look at the number of people who have been in the military and are in the military; we’re not just talking about the people who’ve been affected by [invasive mind control] programming. It’s huge!
E: I’ve heard from a couple of survivors that computer and satellite link-ups for individual mind control programming are now less time and energy consuming methods of invasive mind control. This development makes me wonder, how broadly are they are using individual mind control? How deeply has this technology penetrated society?
B: It’s every where, but it’s not every thing.That’s the other part of it. Think about how the mass media functions. When you listen to it, you feel really isolated, give up and think, ‘Oh, everybody thinks this and if you don’t, you’re messed up.’ That’s not reality. Everybody doesn’t think whatever it is, at all! It’s just out there in the airwaves. There are plenty of people in the military and government who are paying attention and working hard to operate on what the surface principles of the country allegedly are -- not a dictatorship, not a military police
E: I perceive that there may be a lot of good people in government, but they’re being compromised.
B: They’re letting their fear decide for them. And if you think about what it takes to get elected on a national level-- we don’t really have [democratic elections] there anymore because it’s so expensive that you have to have corporate sponsorship to do it. This doesn’t get talked about because corporations own all the media. That’s a type of programming in itself, and everyone is exposed to it. Then you look at the history curriculum taught in public schools -- that’s programming for everyone, too.
E: In a way, human culture itself is programming.
B: It is! But that’s part of the human experience and is not necessarily negative. What’s humane is that our work in this life is to program ourselves and become who we are intended to be. Sure, there’s going to be some social overlay, but if it’s so intrusive that people can’t develop as humans, as individuals, then we’re really robbing ourselves of so many resources. How many things don’t happen in this country because of programming? It costs us so much. We could all be wealthy if we stopped doing that crap to ourselves. The whole world could be so much happier.
E: Can people heal without spiritual principles or spirituality? I have noted that many survivors get involved in religion, but I’m asking about spirituality, not religion, which can easily be a form of programming itself, despite its authentic core.
B: That’s another one of the ironic things about the programming. If you kill someone -- I mean, I’ve been dead several times, right? You kill someone, you go some place, you do something, you get some strength to go on and you get some knowing. If the humanity around you fails you, which for a kid is being programmed and having an abusive home, you break through the surface fabric and land some place. You don’t just keep falling forever, you land some place. So you live with a knowing about that.
E: Would you be willing to share one such experience?
B: You hear people talk about their after-death experiences. I have a knowing deep down inside me that kept me going and was part of my life force, that I had stuff to do after this. I couldn’t have kept going without it, although not on a conscious level, what I call my top side life. But it was always there with me. It’s not so much one experience as apart of being human. It doesn’t mean that a person necessarily believes in a specific God or something, but I think we are spiritual creatures. So of course you become more open to that part of yourself. But would I have gone to a therapist who had a specific spiritual agenda for me? No. I think Marlene’s ability to be here and listen in that deep way is the work she’d done outside of here, but it was never overt [during therapy].
M: I think it’s so important for a person to define [spirituality] for themselves, do whatever it is that is true for them. I also believe that it is such an important part of therapy and something that is very seldom really worked with in therapy because it’s so uncomfortable for therapists to talk about. They do not know how to talk about spirituality in a generic way.
E: -- in the way that’s actually appropriate.
M: Yes.
B: Marlene invited me to find for myself what I believed -- empowered me to grow in that area by saying, ‘So, what do you believe? What’s true for you?’
M: In any situation, I’d invite her – I’d say,‘Okay, I would like to invite you to take a different perspective, a higher perspective. Crawl way up high on a very tall ladder so you see this from a higher spiritual perspective. What would that be?’
In this context, I’d like to talk about possession. It fits in spiritually, and it also fits in regarding deprogramming and doing things to the client. Any time anything is done to the client, it takes away the power of the client; and anytime you do something to the client,you’re assuming that you know more than the client. This will always mean trouble because you can never assume that you know more. When you’re assuming that this person is possessed, if you assume wrongly and you do a de-possession [exorcism] and that happens to be a part of them that has had to fragment off, a part of them that has had to kill, a part of them that has had to be part of a demonic ritual and take on that personality in order to be a part of that ritual, and it comes time to do memory work, you are doing that client a disservice.
B: In fact, it’s really reinforcing the programming to do that. It’s a judgment: ‘I’m in a position to decide what about you is okay and what part of you we need to get rid of.’
M: ‘I know more about you and what needs to happen than you do.’ And that is not okay. That is not helping to empower the client.
B: I heard you getting at this a little bit earlier: Sometimes a survivor is heavily into their victim trance, and so we send out invitations for people to fix us because we don’t want to take responsibility. But it doesn’t matter how beautifully or touching or puppy-love or desperate that invitation is, it is not helping someone to respondto that message with fixing. I think people really get confused by that. What about somebody who’s really hurting? [The answer is:] If you can’t believe that people have the capacity within them, then you shouldn’t be in the business of healing. People have to really believe that, and yet it’s so seductive to think,‘Oh, but just this once I could help them because they’re solost, and they’ll thank me so much.’ It’s really taking away their power. And every person who does it gets built up just a little bit -- an energy vampire thing. Very, very seductive.
E: The whole idea of banishing the one with the memories is deadly.
M: It is, and so sad, too. Here’s this person inside who was willing to take on this most horrendous role in order to protect, and then they’re banished. So now, in order to heal, the client has togo off in the ozone somewhere to recall the memories...
E: Can you recall banished parts?
M: Well, it’s possible, but then it means just that much more trauma --
B: Because the depossession was actually a violation. I was thinking earlier, when things start to open up, you’re opening up to your truth, a natural process. You don’t have to go to someone. If you have safety, you start to remember. Like a plant, if you have enough air, light, and water, you start to heal and it starts to come out. This is a really vulnerable time because you’ve got all your dysfunction helping you make your decisions. Also, multiples are time-travelers and can call on a future self to help them -- they don’t have to believe in anything but that -- just call on your future self to help you navigate through
E: Regarding possession and demons versus memories belonging to dissociated parts, does it matter what you the therapist personally believe?
M: No.
B: I think that’s the whole thing about leaving the ego at the door. If that person comes in with their faith, that’spart of their tools. If they’re a Christian, they can bring that to their healing. It doesn’t matter if Marlene shares that faith or not because it’s not about her and what she believes. But she has a gift of supporting them as they find out who they are. They don’t have to be a miniature Marlene to benefit.
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