Sunday, July 25, 2010

Interiew with James Evan Pilato

An illuminating interview with James Evan Pilato, host and webmaster of Media Monarchy, providing in-depth analysis and commentary on cover-ups and conspiracies.

His website is


Producer - Mr. E
Program Coordinator - Demy DeAsis

The Olympia Radio Coop is an independent and open source media outlet consisting of riveting interviews, fascinating group discussions and intriguing special reports.


Interview with Tracy Twyman

Tracy R. Twyman, the former Editor of Dagobert’s Revenge Magazine, is a recognized expert on occult history.

She is the author of Mind Controlled Sex Slaves of the CIA, Solomon's Treasure: The Magic and Mystery of America's Money, The Merovingian Mythos and the Mystery of Rennes-le-Chateau, and the editor of The Arcadian Mystique: The Best of Dagobert’s Revenge Magazine (Dragon Key Press, 2005).

Her articles have been published in magazines such as Paranoia and New Dawn, and she has appeared numerous times on radio programs such as Coast to Coast A.M. and Untamed Dimensions to discuss her unique and fascinating theories about world history and mythology.

Tracy's websites are: and

Producer- Mr E
Program Coordinator - Demy DeAsis

The Olympia Radio Coop is an independent and open source media outlet consisting of riveting interviews, fascinating group discussions and intriguing special reports.


Thursday, July 22, 2010

The Monkey's Paw: An interview with A. Nonymous

        Aleister Crowley's portrait of LAM which curiously resembles a "gray" alien-like creature.

By Elana Freeland
July 3, 2003
Featured in the Fall 2003 Issue of MKzine

E: Tell me about the very first visitation experience you remember. How old were you?

C: The first visitation experiences were not long after my father died. I was probably close to twelve. Not only had my father died and I suffered a complete family breakdown, but there was also -- that was when a lot of the really heavy sexual abuse in my family happened as well. Pretty traumatizing. I started having these experiences at night where I would be lying awake in my bed and I would be paralyzed, I couldn’t move but was completely aware. I couldn’t see them at first, but I distinctly felt their presence. These creatures would just scan me, check me out, sometimes with instruments of light that would scan me from head to toe. Then it changed dramatically, and I could see them, these tall,sort of slight silvery gray creatures.

E: How many were there?

C: Just the two of them. One seemed to be assisting the other. They removed a section from my cheek about an inch in diameter using these light implements to operate on me. It was a completely bloodless, seamless operation. Then they replaced it, but what they replaced it with felt like my flesh and yet not, like an implant of some sort.

E: Were they operating from the inside of your cheek or the outside?

C: From the outside, but the hole went right through it.

E: Were you asleep when this happened? What state of consciousness were you in?

C: I was pretty terrified.

E: You were in bed?

C: I was in bed and it felt like I was awake and paralyzed -- that I was being held in some sort of stasis against my will. At that point, it was really unpleasant, so I tried to resist and move, and the minute that I did that they used another implement that sent this beam of light down on me and I was in agonizing pain. It was like someone had taken two huge spikes and driven them down into either hemisphere of my skull. I could do nothing but just lie there in agony. There are times in my life when that pain comes back and I feel like it’s being used against me still.

E: Are they certain times, when you’re thinking certain things?

C: Yes.It comes back when I’m trying to use paranormal skills.

E: Suchas?

C: Distant viewing, reading thoughts, trying to have an astral projection while conscious-- things like that, things that I used to do pretty commonly.

E: When you were a child?

C: When I was a kid, I used to do those things really easily.

E: Can I ask you something before you go on from there? Because sexual abuse is such a trauma and can open parts of us that previously were integrous, can I ask you about the sexual abuse -- who and what kind of trauma was passed on to you, just briefly.

C: Well, I was raped by a woman, if that’s what you’re asking.

E: Were you actually entered?

C: Was I penetrated?

E: Uh-huh.

C: No.

E: But things were done to you against your will?

C: Yes.

E: Often, trauma is connected to visitations and I don’t quite understand the connection.

C: Well, I think that I have an understanding of that but it’s much later in the story.-- So then I started having the experiences that are described pretty clearly in [the book] Communion --

E: By Whitley Strieber?

C: --yes, by Whitley Strieber, where there’s a ship outside and I can do things. I’m very alarmed and I get up out of my bed and the whole house is encased in a blue pyramid of crystalline light. That was what Whitley described and it really struck me because it was exactly the same thing that I experienced. That happened a couple of times -- well, more than a couple of times.The second time creatures came into my room and sort of checked me over.The third time -- there was always a sort of aggression and it got more invasive each and every time -- the third time the one thing that was real interesting was I would get up and look outside -- I had shutters on my windows and I’d see this light coming through the shutters. I’d open them and would see the crystal of blue light, the ship, and then instead of being alarmed and panicked I would go back to bed. I was alarmed and panicked, yet I couldn’t do anything about it and was compelled to go back to bed.

E: It wasn’t like you were being obedient to some sort of inner command?

C: I don’t think so. It was meticulously willed, if it was.

E: Were you still twelve then?

C: Oh yeah, all this stuff happened in pretty rapid succession. There was one point when they put me on a litter and examined me more in my room. The next time, they put me on the litter and started to take me out of the house, then for some reason changed their minds. Finally, there was a time when they put me on the litter -- I remember distinctly it was very strange because it was the right size for me. It was a raised litter that had this shelf running around the bottom of it and they stood on the shelf so they always leaned slightly.The shelf or litter was just high enough so that when they stood on the shelf I was surrounded by their faces, they were all watching me -- I was surrounded by these heads. Then the thing floated down the hall, out the front door,and started to rise up to the ship.

At that point, I decided that I wasn’t going to go and I would rather die than go with them. Every time I had tried to resist anything that had been done before, I had always been shocked with pain; this time I made the decision that I wasn’t going to give in to the pain. They were intently applying a lot of pain, very agonizing, and I decided I didn’t care how much it hurt, I was going to will myself to die rather than go with them. At that point, the whole scene completely dissolved and I woke up with this agonizing pain in my forehead, lying on my back in bed. Then I felt a sharp break in the pain in my forehead like it peaked at a huge extreme. I saw a glowing translucent ball of light with faint rainbow colors right next to my bed, with a sort of arch of white light with rainbow colors attached to my head being drawn back into the ball of light.

I completely confronted it and started having a conversation with it in my mind. It wasn’t a verbal conversation but we were definitely conversing. I said, “Who are you and what do you want?” I sensed hesitancy but not really duplicity on its part. It said, “Basically, I want your pain.” I said, “Emotions are food for you?” and it’s clear that there was a language or translation barrier so there was a lot of hesitancy on its part but it said, “Yes.” And so I said, “Well, what about love?” and I tried to reach into it -- I felt compassion for this being -- and at the least hint of love and contact, it fled the house, completely fled the house. In fact, I was chasing it down the hallway --

E: Physically?

C: Oh yeah, and I opened the front door -- the front door had been doubly latched,and as I recall, I think I had done that myself because I had such fear of these things that were coming -- you know what I mean? I knew that it was completely irrational to doubly latch the door but I did it anyway. So the latches got in my way and I couldn’t get out in time to pursue it. In my rush, I slammed the front door open and my mother woke up and got upset and said,“What are you doing?” I told her about having these things in my room and that they were hurting me, and she said, “Go to bed, you’re dreaming.” “No,”I said,“I wasn’t dreaming.”

E: Did you feel that your mother didn’t really know anything about it?

C: No, she hadn’t a clue.-- And then they came back one more time.

E: The beings, or the ball of light?

C: The ball of light. This time it tried to re-create the abduction experience and all that stuff, and I woke up right away, sat up in bed and looked at it like, “I am so on to you.” I didn’t put it in those terms, but it was like, “Iknow what you’re about and you can’t come here, you can’t feed on me anymore, and never bother me again. You have to go away.” And that was it. I never saw them again.

The thing is, in my adult life I found out about other cultures talking about these things, like the Indonesians call them the layac --

E: The layac?

C: -- or the ladac, and they’re often associated with a family that has -- and they’re considered evil spirits -- a family that has had trauma or loss or a nill child, and the layac come when people die in their culture.There’s a real correlation there. These entities have social recognition.

E: Now, when you say the ladac, is it the ball of light or does that mean the beings?

C: The ball of light.

E: What is the relationship between those beings that were doing something to you and the ball of light?

C: You know, my understanding of that is that that was a tape that they were playing in my head that they have prepared and used for generations to torment humans with the latest bogey man available to them in current human social consciousness.

E: So the ship and the operation and the elongated grays or whatever --

C: Yeah, all that stuff is something to stimulate fear so they can juice people for more fear.

E: What plane of reality do you think they live on?

C: I think that they are inorganic beings of this planet and that they live in the Earth technically on a different dimensional level, and that they have visited our society for millennia, whether as dragons, angels, UFOs and grays or devils from hell -- that these creatures have redefined the tape to some extent, but it’s the same one over and over. The other thing was when I was communicating with it, I realized it didn’t have emotions and was completely neutral to me, that it was the lion and I was the zebra. It had no remorse or any kind of emotion.

E: Have you talked to other people who’ve had similar experiences?

C: No.

E: I am wondering if it only strikes children? Children would seem the most vulnerable and the most intense emotionally.

C: I think it grooms children and once it’s formed a relationship with a particular child, it will pursue that person throughout the rest of their life. But it has to create that relationship with the child --

E: A fear relationship?

C: Yeah. It wouldn’t be as effective with an adult, there’s too much rational mind with an adult.

E: Do they tend to come at night as opposed to the day?

C: Yes.

E: Why do you think that is?

C: I think human beings are more easy to prey on at night.

E: More vulnerable in sleep?

C: Yes, more vulnerable in sleep.

E: It preys on fear, or is it negative emotions in general?

C: What ever it is, it’s the rational element they want to stay away from.

E: And that’s how you defeated them, is through figuring it out?

C: Yes.

E: So that was the last encounter?

C: Yeah.

E: Has anything else happened in adulthood? You’ve mentioned that sometimes you get the pain in your head if you try paranormal abilities.

C: Yes.

E: Are there other ways that you’ve noticed an impact?

C: I have been visited by inorganic beings throughout my life since, but never that kind. It’s been different orders of beings.

E: In sleep?

C: In sleep and waking, but always at night.

E: Describe some of them.

C: Well, one of the ones that I’ve had the most frequent experiences with is a ball of light, like a bursting ball of lightning but much redder. It is always associated with prickling skin, like a heavy discharge of static electricity, and there is a crackling sound like a very intense fire. They never try and coerce but they’re very charming and seductive, they try to seduce. It’s not as if they actually have any emotional content, but they definitely have a “Come hither” ploy. And I’ve always been really staunch about, “No, I won’t go with you.”

E: What ages?

C: All the way up until now.

E: Are you asleep when it happens or semi-asleep?

C: Sometimes, it happens when I’m asleep but usually I wake up. There are times when I have dreams and the dreams are very dynamic -- the feeling is still there of hearing crackling energy and feeling the static on my skin. I’ll wake up out of those dreams and that thing will be there at my bedside, not still as the white balls of light but moving around, sweeping through me. And there’ll be times when I’ll become lucid within the dream and be aware and the dream will wash away and it’ll be just me and the creature in the darkened space, and at those times I’ll physically force myself to awaken. I’ll be lucid so I’ll know if I am actually awake by speaking, and if I can’t speak or move, then I know that I’m actually still asleep and I’ll have to control my body and force myself to wake up. Usually, at that point they’ll be there and they’ll retreat and go away.

E: So you don’t feel jeopardized by them?

C: No. I always feel that -- well, I do feel jeopardized by the fact that I could be seduced -- If I’m not like vigilance about not accepting their come on.

E: They’re not trying to be sexual?

C: No, it’s about the energy. They’re trying to lure me into their trap, whatever it may be -- their realm or agreeing to go with them and be part of their activities in such a way that my energy is affected by them.

E: And is the reason they come to you somehow because the experience before left a signature on you and they know where you are?

C: Yes, I think that may have something to do with it. I think also the paranormal skills that I had as a child may be a special delicacy for their appetites.

E: Can you talk a little about those paranormal skills you had? Out-of-body, I assume?

C: Alot of out-of-body starting very, very early -- some of my earliest memories are actually out-of-body experiences. Being able to move almost at will as a young child and travel all over the world; one of the most important was being able to fly, that was something I could do both asleep and in out-of-body experiences. Having distant viewing was something I was also very, very good at. There was a point that -- later in my life when I was more cognizant of this world -- I did things like visited the White House during the Reagan-Bush years --

E: At night?

C: I would spend a lot of time in bed when I was supposed to be asleep having experiences, meditating. I levitated on three different occasions. Being able to do things like that was pretty dramatic -- I don’t know if it was necessarily good for my ego but it really affected how I interacted. I was able to read people’s thoughts on occasion.

E: When you visited the White House, what did you see?

C: I had seen a broadcast from the Oval Office and had a picture of it, so having that to fix on I used the image and projected myself there. Reagan and Bush were there, and Bush was coaching Reagan about what to say in regard to some public speech. It was arcane and not something that I understood. There was another person there --

E: Did they know you were there?

C: At some point, it seemed pretty clear that they were aware of my presence, and at that point I can tell you what they said. They said, “Oh well, there’s someone here watching us,” and then Bush, very excited, said, “Who is it, who is it?”and a third voice said, “A boy,” and Bush said, “Oh good, I like little boys.”

E: Tell me about your father. Did you say once that he was involved with the military?

C: Oh yes, he was involved with the military.

E: Which branch?

C: With the Army.

E: What was his role? Was he an officer?

C: Not that I’m aware of.

E: Was he military intel? Did he go on long trips?

C: Yeah, he did do that. He left the service officially just before the Korean War.

E: You were born --

C: I was born in ‘66. People have told me that he was in the Army just as a grunt.

[The tape recording jammed and the question was lost]

C: You know, when I use them and direct them according to my will,according to what I would choose with my rational mind -- there are times when I feel like there’s someone sort of tuning in, like “Let’s see what we can pick up with this antenna.” But there are times when I talk about this, it does sort of open up that channel and the pain’s starts to come up. And the thing is, when I do my will, it hurts. There’s a pain in a specific location.

E: Before the experiences when you were twelve, do you remember in childhood anytimes you were in hospital or clinics or dentists or places that were paid for by the military that your dad worked for?

C: No.

E: So you weren’t a sickly child.

C: No, not at all.

E: We still haven’t grappled with the military intelligence connections.There must be something going on there, or maybe not. Your dad happened to do that, and then you happened to have paranormal abilities, and then you happened to have alien encounters. But I tend not to believe in coincidences.

C: Well, there are a lot of people who were in the military, but I think they’re always looking for people who have those skills.

E: Your dad didn’t have those skills?

C: No, he was not of that bent whatsoever. That definitely comes from my mother’s side of the family.

E: Then what about the cheek thing? Was something implanted?

C: You know, for a long time I really did think there was. I remember for weeks after that experience feeling my cheek and trying to find a lump in it. Right after, there was a lump in it.

E: But the pain you feel in your head when you get close to that...

C: It’s always located in one hemisphere. It goes from the top of the head in a straight line pattern to the temple all the way back, then under the jaw -- all the left side.

E: The cube only came once.

C: The cube only came once and that was in that dark space with just me. I totally knew that I was having another dream and these things entered from stage left.I pushed myself to wake up, and there it was, standing right outside my home, quivering. It was in some sense like dealing with a child with gooey, happy emanations; it wasn’t really like dealing with a totally rational being, but it was powerful, just limited in scope. I kind of waver because it really, really affected me in that it was intimidating the way it just sort of marched into my reality and in and of itself crossed all kinds of boundaries -- boundaries of asleep and awake, boundaries of 3-dimensional reality. So I was kind of awed by it, and that was its power of seduction: the ability to awe. I almost fell for that one in a sense.

There was another experience of very tall, green-blue wavy forms, about 20 feet tall and eight to ten feet wide. They didn’t come alone like the other ones; they come in groups or pairs. They’ve been around a dozen times.

E: Does it seem connected to any part of yourself? Your stomach, abdomen, sexual organs, larynx? I’m thinking of the chakras. Are these beings connected to certain energy sources in us that are particularly active?

C: Definitely when the crackling ball is around, I feel it in my abdomen. When that dark box was there, I felt a crampiness in my right side down the torso. When the wavy blue forms were there, I felt very nauseous.

E: From the motion or just the presence?

C: Their presence was the motion.

E: What did they want?

C: I don’t know, but they were the ones that I had the greatest bodily revolt against.

E: Do their approaches have anything to do with the seasons or anything you’ve noticed that is rhythmic in any way?

C: Not that I know of.

E: So all in all, how many kinds of beings have approached you since adulthood?

C: Dozens.

E: So you’re just used to it, you live with it?
C: Yeah, it’s not like a terrible thing. It really opens me up to the wonders of the universe that more than meet the eye, and I appreciate that about their role.

E: When you use the term ‘inorganics,’ are you thinking of Castaneda’s portrayal of inorganics?

C: Yes. When I encountered Carlos Castaneda’s writings I ate it up because the fact of the matter was it was the only thing that I’d ever encountered in my life that described the experiences I’d had since I was a kid. It gave me a context, someone to relate to, like wow, I’m not alone, I’m not crazy. I use his terminology because it correlates so well with my experiences.

E: And what of Castaneda’s idea of having power if you’re going to go into that realm? I mean, you have no desire to command those inorganics the way Don Juan was trying to get Carlos to do --

C: Right.

E: --but what I’m hearing you say is that if you can consciously recognize them, not allow the fear to catch hold of you, and not submit but actually move toward compassion, there’s no reason to fear these beings.

C: No, there isn’t really a reason to fear the beings, but what he wrote about is something completely different. He talked about flirtations with disaster in my eyes, which was to go into their realm and play their game and try to glean energy from them. So basically you come down to their level. You tease them with the enticement of possible energy from you and meanwhile try to win energy from them.

E: You don’t recommend that at all.

C: No, I think it’s completely stupid.

E: And hubristic?

C: Yeah.

E: What would you recommend to people who are encountering these beings?

C: To say, “I won’t go with you.”

E: It was really haunting when you had the compassion for that one being and suddenly whoom! it was gone.

C: Right.

E: I’m just trying to imagine: are positive emotions repulsive to them?

C: Yes, and they don’t have any power that you don’t give them. That’s really, really clear. They need our volition. They cannot do anything without our willingness. So ultimately we have the power of choice. We have to choose. They’ll do their utmost to cloud that issue and seduce us and to get us to betray ourselves, but they need our volition.

E: Do you think that many of the stories that are bandied about in UFO circles and the mind control circuit of encounters with aliens, grays, reptilians, etc., are “screen memory” scenarios run by these inorganics as they attempt to get us to go with them and give them whatever they want?

C: Yes, I really do. I was so surprised by how Whitley Strieber’s book said, “Well, definitely you’re dealing with a real phenomenon because of the absolute consistency of the stories of these people who have all of these wildly divergent backgrounds all across the globe and yet basically describe almost the exact same story.” What struck me when I read that was, no, that’s absolutely wrong. What that consistency describes is not a real phenomenon but a tape being played because with all of these different circumstances and different backgrounds and experiences, people would have different experiences, not exactly the same one! Since they’re all having exactly the same one, there’s sort of a conspiracy of consistency amongst them. When I read his book and said, “Wow, this is the exact same experience that I had,” and yet I had such a different outcome, I realized that they create screen memories. I didn’t get taken away to “the ship” because of the one thing that I did differently. Now, there may be other people like me who have had a different outcome, but I haven’t heard of them yet. However, all people have the potential to have that different outcome: to break through the delusion that is being perpetrated upon them.

E: These beings sound parasitic.

C: Yes, they’re very parasitic.

E: And it sounds as though they can follow you throughout your life.

C: Yes.

E: One other hypothesis that floats around is of course military involvement. Often, people’s memories fix on military personnel, uniforms, operating tables, deep underground bases. Can these inorganics possibly see our culture well enough to decide upon a certain tape to run that would work on a variety of people as a cover?

C: Yes.

E: Would any of our people in authority be in communication with these beings and be interested in them? Could there be something behind the rumor that some of the technology we now have is alien technology?

C: Well, that’s asking me to speculate on a lot. I’d really rather speak from my experience than speculate. My experience of what our government is capable of and what they’re willing to keep secret and what they’re willing to pursue in order to obtain power, is beyond question. That they could make some sort of associations with other beings -- why not? It’s not at all outside the realm of their capabilities or doings, especially since it’s pretty well known that they have recruited a lot of people with paranormal abilities, and people with paranormal abilities are going to be having contact with these kinds of beings. And so it would have come to their attention, yes, the fact that these kinds of creatures are around, the fact that they are having a large enough impact on society to create a mass phenomenon -- the UFO industry and all that. Yes, it would definitely have come to their attention. How they could form an association with them without willing accomplices who have considerable paranormal training, I don’t know. They would need those accomplices. Beyond that, I can’t really say.

E: Because these beings seem very intelligent, lacking feeling, perhaps even self-reflection, but intelligent in a cold sort of way --

C: Exactly.

E: --so they might have other things they know in a bartering situation with power.I’m thinking of people who realize they exist and want something from them and so cut a deal to feed them certain people. Is that a possibility?

C: When you’re in conversation with them, so to speak, it’s completely elementary, without the finer, subtler concepts we describe with language. Those nuances of communication are not available to them. So their ability to impart information as far as discrete data that would be useful would be extremely unlikely.

E: What is their intelligence, then?

C: Their intelligence is the intelligence of the scheming and conniving predator.

E: Moving appetites?

C: Yes. That’s the one thing that’s pretty clear about them: their appetites are enormous and everything that they do as far as charm and seduction is intended to hide that appetite and keep it behind the veil. However, communication with them is on the level of honesty. It’s very hard for them to be duplicitous because they have no choice, it’s the only way they can talk to you. That’s why they prefer to interact through dreams and semi-consciousness where they can really control the situation and feed you what they want you to see and not what they don’t.

E: In esoteric language, our lowest body is the physical body. It sounds like their lowest body would be perhaps an etheric or astral body. They don’t have a physical body?

C: No.

E: So their food is psychic, and the emotional field is certainly the easiest to graze from. However, they were drawn to a psychic child. Is that typical? Are they drawn to psychic people because there’s more to eat there?

C: I think they’re drawn to psychic people because the channel’s more open and the food is more accessible. The portal is farther and wider open for them to jump through.

E: So when you saw a ball of light or cube or sheets of kelp, those were pictures you made of what they looked like? Were those human perceptions, what we make them look like because that’s the only way we can conceive of them?

C: I don’t know what the difference would be. We make them look like what they do look like to us. That’s how we perceive them.

E: And you saw four varieties?

C: Yes, four varieties. But there’s one I haven’t seen that really directly tried to use my fear, and that one was like the disembodiment of Dracula, what a vampire would feel like.

E: In the sleep-waking state?

C: In the sleep-waking state in that I had not fallen completely asleep and fully woke up.

E: Do you think that these beings can munch people so thoroughly that they become part of them?

C: Oh, definitely.

E: Which means that people’s humanity is curtailed by these beings?

C: Yes.

E: So in other words there are people walking around who look human but probably are not that human anymore.

C: Yes, in that they’re acting on the motivations and intent of these appetites.

E: Would these be powerful people?

C: They could be.

E: Predatory people, criminals?

C: Oh, yeah.

E: Do certain drugs give access to these beings?

C: Possibly, but I can’t really answer. You talk about Castaneda whose experiences are really associated with drugs, and I never had those experiences while imbibing consciousness-expanding drugs. Never.

E: So when you’ve taken psychedelics, they did not intensify or heighten the connection with these beings?

C: No.In fact, I took those substances with the intention of trying to improve some kind of connection.

E: Interesting. Do you think the Castaneda books are legitimate?

C: I think they’re a mix of truth and fiction and it’s really hard to distinguish what’s what.

E: Anything else you want to say about your experiences?

C: I just remember as a child when I would experience my paranormal abilities, there was a tremendous freedom associated with them. Since the experiences when I was twelve, they’ve been associated with pain. That freedom is gone and has never returned, especially the sense of liberation I experienced as a child.

E: That’s sad.

C: Yes, very sad. One of the other things that happens is when I am getting close to certain experiences or abilities again, I sometimes experience this really intense, high-pitched ringing in my ears that comes on like a pulse.

E: Is there a relationship between the stomach and these beings? A lot of people have stomach pains associated with alien encounters.

C: That’s funny because I got ulcers as a child right around that time. For along time, I had a pretty severe gastrointestinal disorder. I quit using all drugs and it healed.

E: Did you ever experience a point of entry?

C: No. I always saw the being beside me, and the only contact was the time I was connected by my forehead. But regarding people being inhabited by these beings,there is a very real extent to which they can be controlled by them.People can be eaten out by these beings to the extent -- and this is something that seems very real to me -- that they would be very easily controlled by others.I distinctly see the possibility of those creatures eating your will.Where they try to interact the most is right down here. [Gestures to solar plexus.]

E: Even in our language, the area of the stomach and solar plexus has something to do with the will: You have no guts. Whenever fear strikes, martial arts teaches that you should deepen your breathing and pull in energy two fingers below your navel to counteract it.

C: Tighten it up.

E: If scientists and people with psychic powers have discovered this, they could feasibly use it to control others.

C: You mean they might find ways to sic these creatures on you?

E: Yes. And through sex -- there are beings that can enter through illicit sex. Have you ever experienced that?

C: Something really transformed in me when I was raped. It was a huge wound and at that moment I was in such a state of terror and anguish, I really thought I was being murdered. I was too young to understand what was going on and was wide open. It was not long after being molested and raped that these other experiences started happening. Previous to that, all of my psychic experiences had been positive; after that, they were radically negative.

E: The use of fear, the increasing abuse of children... So George Bush said,“I like little boys.” What gave them their ability to be able to sense some body in the room?

C: Oh no, I don’t think they sensed it. They had an adept in their pay or control who was monitoring the situation for them. The adept wasn’t even necessarily even there. It was a report that was relayed to them as one of their security screens. It wasn’t that someone in the room noticed; what they got was a security alert.

E: I can see how these beings might be used by so-called satanists who still perform old rituals formulated to draw them and set up power relationships with them for the sake of establishing more power in this reality.

C: When you talk about stuff like that, I always think of those things as the monkey’s paw magic. Do you know what I mean by that?

E: No.

C: It always costs you more than you gain. That’s why it’s delusional and egoistic.Unless these things are of service to the greater good of human kind and spirit in general, then they will always cost more than is gained. That’s the essential mistake that egoistic hubris always leads to -- you know, the“Somehow, I will cheat that game, and I’ll be able to gain more than I give up.” It never works that way.

E: Do you think these creatures are limited to this realm?

C: There are definitely beings I have encountered that are interplanetary and have nothing to do with these childish games --

E: That these little appetites running around are playing?

C: Yeah, I think that those entities are strictly terrestrial.

E: So what were the others like?

C: Those beings were much more benevolent.

E: Did you see them or feel them?

C: Both. There was one that looked like a rolling cloud of gold, with gold dust spiraling over and over itself. It had an intense presence of good and light.

E: This was when you were a child?

C: No, it was much later, when I was an adult. It was able to understand more nuances of language and thought, and its reply to me about some of my questions was, “I have no interest in those childhood games. I’m not here on that level.I’m just here to let you know that this -- is powerful and available and is here for good.”

E: What other beings did you see that are beneficent?

C: Another one came in sort of a cloud of gold, but more of a silvery gold. A lot of times when I’m looking at things like this, I’m looking at something in front of me and also through a wall, so to speak. These beings are enormous,and are touching fellows of their own, a group all joined together. You can’t actually witness one without seeing the others. Once, I was actually physically bearing witness to someone about these beings -- that they actually exist, are really here and part of our lives affecting us for good --when the channel opened up in me and it said, “Hello,” flooding me with joy.

E: So different from the appetites scavenging for people to munch?

C: I just look at it as the power of selection operating on the spiritual level.It’s asking us to evolve by being conscious and present on those levels as well. The people who can’t pull it together to say no to these little appetites will be consumed, whereas the ones who do pull it together will be able to make connections with higher being. It’s about evolution; there’s no malice in the appetites whatsoever.

E: Because of the fear quotient around abductions and encounters, and given how they are generally dealt with in a knee-jerk way as marginal “woo-woo”entertainment, reasonable discourse is lacking. Will knowing about it and treating it reasonably help people to realize yes, these invisible entities do exist and I may encounter them, I may have encountered them, but I can take power over them?

C: That’s right. Bringing things into the light and not just leaving them in the shadows of knee-jerk religious moralizing will help. These are elemental forces of the universe, of nature. I don’t see why their existence should be considered so unrealistic. Clearly, people who have a high level of understanding in physics know that there is a huge realm of inter-dimensional reality all around us at all times. It’s all there. Now, why wouldn’t there be creatures that actually live in those dimensions? That we don’t understand how they assemble their being is similar to how we don’t really fully understand how we assemble our own being here in this three-dimensional reality that we don’t even fully understand. It’s not really that great of a stretch of the imagination.It makes a lot of sense. Yes, having a dialogue, bringing more of the vast,wondrous, and mysterious universe into discussion -- great! There’s no harm in that. And there’s nothing moral about it, either. There’s no moralizing that this is a sin or demonic in any sense.

Sunday, June 27, 2010

Review and Analysis of the Matrix

Review By Columbia Jones
and featured in the Winter 2004 Edition of MKzine

The Wachowski  Brothers, interestingly, have only done one other film, Bound, in 1996. Little else is known about them, except that they have been working together for 30 years.

In the movie The Matrix, Reeves is dressed in a black trench coat while firing two automatic pistols and engaged in an assault on a SWAT Team, reminiscent of the Colorado schoolyard shootings. His partner carries a duffel bag with bombs init, again a striking similarity with the Columbine High School tragedy in Colorado. The Matrix mimics violent video games. It programs kids by simulating an LSD trip while brutalizing them with violent imagery. The movie links mass murder of policemen to a notion of freedom-fighting. Take your kid to see this film and he is programmed. Period. He will have his MKULTRA marching orders.

Michael A.Hoffman II

                                          Morpheus: Where is Neo now?
                                           Link: Oh, he’s doing the Superman thing.

                                           From Matrix Reloaded

There are all sorts of coincidences these days, have you noticed? Like the comic book Adventures of Superman  #596 arriving on the stands the day after 9/11/01 to reveal its own twin Luther Towers in smoking ruin. But then Superman has always been steeped in coincidence.Take the names of the stars who’ve played Superman:

First, there was George Reeves (1914-1959) who played Superman in the 1951 film “Superman and the Mole Men” about a subterranean race; then did the television series from 1952 to 1958, dying in real life the year after, either of murder or suicide, traumatizing the first television generation of children who, like our children, couldn’t quite separate the star from the role. Then there was Steve Reeves (1926-2000). He never played Superman per se but was Mr.America in 1947, then played Hercules in 1959, the year George Reeves died. Steve Reeves managed to live happily until old age. Next was Christopher Reeve, born the year George began the Superman television series. He made four Superman films, the last one in 1987. Memorial Day weekend eight years later his thoroughbred Eastern Express threw him and shattered his C1-C2 vertebrae, leaving him at 42 almost completely paralyzed. Since then, this wheelchair Reeve has been a key spokesman for controversial stem cell research, pushing for stem cells to be taken from living embryos left over from fertility treatments. (Frankenstein meets Superman?) And now here is Keanu Reeves in the futuristic allegory known as The Matrix trilogy. Born in Beirut when Christopher Reeve was only twelve, this Reeves is our first mixed-race Superman (his father is Chinese-Hawaiian, his mother English).

So what is it about the word "reeve" that makes for Hollywood’s Superman, or as Morpheus has re-christened him,“the one”? Reeve is an old nautical term meaning to pass through, thread or tie, like a rope through a block and tackle (Oxford English Dictionary). Its secondary meaning is agricultural and means to separate wheat from chaff. So a reeve is someone whose role is to bring others through something in a process that sifts one thing from another. (By the way, the two earliest Supermen were not reeves but an alyn and a collier. Kirk Alyn did two 15-part serials for Paramount, and Bud Collyer did Superman on radio, both in the 1940s. Alyn means to anoint and is connected to the word alien,and a collier is a coal miner who perhaps digs for cole, an ancient word referring to magic or the occult.)

Is Keanu Reeves the next Matrix-style Superman in a tradition of reeves? If so, his character Neo Anderson --the new son of man, neo meaning “new” and andros “man” -- has been given the task of reeving the young through a very dark aperture, indeed, when religious programming has all but been exhausted and slated to be replaced by computer programming and alien entities that delight in devouring our human life force. As Wes Thomas, moderator of a mind control message board, said in an e-mail, “Matrix Reloaded is about competing mind control operations: religious controllers vs. programmers who have replaced priests in our current culture as the arbiters of reality.” I would go one step further and say that Jesuits and Freemasons now work together for the same grand enter-prize, their ethos being, "whatever works," or perhaps Aleister Crowley’s more finely phrased, "Do what thou wiltshall be the whole of the law."

What a “coincidence” that The Matrix came out in early April 1999 and the “trench coat mafia” baptized our youths in blood at Columbine High School on April 20, Hitler’s birthday -- just about as“coincidental” as Adventures of Superman #596 coming out the day after the Twin Towers inferno. Michael A. Hoffman II does a little etymology of his own on the name Columbine: “The occult name for America is Columbia [Ed.: District of Columbia]. A bine, as anyone who has worked on a haying crew on a farm knows, is a cutting tool. Columbine literally signifies the cutting of America. It’s a Jack the Ripper mutilation process and it will take more than being angry or upset to stop this madness.” (“The Mirror World of Columbine,” Yes, signs and wonders attend these days of millennial crossover, but why do I sense they are the work of men and not gods, and that youth is their target?

Because of the presence of a Reeve and the redolence of twilight language*, Matrix Reloaded definitely bears the Freemason/ Jesuit imprimatur intent upon imprinting the masses one more time. First, there is the hodge-podge of religion, oracles, and occult lore: the cheesy Asian-Catholic-Gothic feudalistic backdrop that we have grown accustomed to seeing in apocalyptic films (Blade Runner, Dark City, DemolitionMan, etc.); Neo as Jesuit warrior-priest programmed for Crouching Tiger martial arts; Morpheus as a black Greek god of dreams, and Trinity the Triple Goddess -- maiden, mother and crone/ waxing, full and waning moon. The esoterica thickens with the introduction of the old Merovingian “program” **that has imprisoned the Asian Key maker, and the Merovingian’s Magdalen-like wife Persephone who betrays her husband with a kiss from the new son of man. Whew, what a mish-mash of religions! And lest you think that the Merovingian-Magdalen reference, and the “Mark III, No. 11” (Mark 3:11)on the hull of the Nebuchadnesser (“Wheneverthe unclean spirits saw him, they fell down before him and shouted,‘You are the Son of God!’”), and Neo’s “resurrection” of Trinity are intended to throw a bit of Christianity into the Buddhist-Jesuit-Greek-Babylonian-Merovingian mix, think again. But that’s the point, isn’t it? Once religious programming has lost its spin, the magister ludis can just take a few morsels that still have some subliminal spin on them, throw them in together, and make a nice, big one-world religion for those like Morpheus who need a little more than mere Matrix programming.

Side-by-side with the Jesuit religious-mythic programming is the more worldly Masonic programming, represented by the benign fatherly Councillor Dillard, across between Yale Skull & Bones and Roman patron; and the Architect, good old Freemasonic GAOTU (Great Architect of the Universe) himself, another white-haired Skull & Bones Aryan type sitting like a great Roman god in the sky, his video screens multiplied like a bee’s eye as they cynically (and pruriently) scan the lives of those he has programmed. The Architect is the mouthpiece of the esoteric elite who see and program the future, whereas the black Oracle of the past can only see. The reeve’s message is that the top of the pyramid will always be inhabited by a few white Skull and Bones-types who will make all the pronouncements, while the rest of us humble types--Third World refugees living in our humble abodes in subterranean hive-like cities like Zion, “free” of the Matrix -- will fill lesser posts in the Empire.While our top dogs sit in their ivory towers devising our programmed future, we will be laying offerings at the latest son of man’s god like feet or gyrating in mindless disco orgiastic pleasure in Dante’s lusty Inferno. Meanwhile, the new son of man and his three-fold Isis will be consummating a new trinity upstairs.

And what might this new Masonic/ Jesuit trinity be? Perhaps the economic, political, and cultural New World Order packaged as a dark and dreary machinated existence in either hive-like Zions or tin cans like the Nebuchadnezzer, Vigilant, and Logos that sail electromagnetic seas while being assailed by robotic insectoid sentinels gone mad. How far we have fallen since Clark Kent changed clothes in that Metropolis phone booth! The Matrix primes us for just how far afield the technological future has strayed from innocence by directing us briefly to Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland (published in 1865) and then to The Wizard of Oz (published in 1939). Aptly enough, it is Cypher the betrayer who utters the bone-crushing trigger, "Grab your seat, Dorothy, Kansas is about to go bye-bye." Those of us who are aware of military mind control recognize Wizard of Oz programming when we hear it, cypher or not. -- By the way, both Lewis Carroll (Charles Lutwidge Dodgson) and Frank Baum were involved in occult esoterics.

So what is Neo reeving the young into? The bioports in his head and kundalini spinal column bespeak the advent of a conjunction between man and machine, certainly nothing for us drones to look forward to, unless we have been programmed to see the Nietzschean MK-Ultra Superman as “the one.” The Architect says to our youths, “Outer life will be tough both inside and outside of the Matrix. It’s all programming -- all the religion stuff, the hero stuff, the rebel stuff -- for there is no real freedom except that which we allow you. But you will still have virtual reality and Alice in Wonderland drugs to get your kicks from.” What lovely prognostication.

One particularly interesting character in both films is Mr. Smith. A three-piece-suit kind of program, Mr. Smith puts a face on the machine consciousness that is our greatest enemy, greater even than Skull and Bones or Jesuit programmers. For Mr. Smith does not just program us; he takes our soul. By assaulting the heart of his prey Aztec-style, he subsumes what makes us human and multiplies himself xerox-wise. In other words, Mr. Smith’s are Legion, demonic, and their three-piece-suit visages indicate that they have something to do with the corporate geist that we are just beginning to recogize as the soul-eater that eats us from the inside out. Mr. Smith and the bioports are the scariest news that the reeve brings us. Neo squares off against Legion, but is totally sold on his bioports. Too bad.

The saddest scene is when Neo finally gets the key from the Keymaker, opens the door to illumination, and encounters -- o joy -- the Great Masonic Architect whose satellite eyes read our akashic records***  like yesterday’s newspaper. Contrary to what Matrix Reloaded would have us believe, the Illuminated One is a program, too -- an Illuminati program running like a B-grade movie from the past, as passé as the Merovingian program it makes fun of. We cheer when Neo sees through this Yale wind bag and chooses the door that leads to individual love for Trinity instead of species love, but at the same time we know that his victory over GAOTU’s programming is pyrrhic -- there is, after all, that bioport in his head -- and that we ourselves were probably programmed by the Wachowski Brothers to cheer at just that moment. The Architect has indeed implanted a devious thought in our brains: Has media sleight-of-hand made us into a Zion riff raff who only think we can be free because we have been programmed to think it? Are we all Morpheus who over simplifies solutions and thinks with outworn religious and mythical sentiments instead ofwith theportions of our brains that aren’t yet programmed?

The happiest scene and one that will be truly memorable for me is when Neo counters the Aztec rite of corporate cloning and reaches into Trinity with his hand of light -- we all have one, I have seen mine -- to redeem and resurrect her. At that moment, I reclaim the symbol that Trinity is and choose to see her as the three-fold human being -- head, heart, and hands/ thinking, feeling, and willing -- and see Neo as the reeve, bioports or not, who shows us the way to disbelieve our masters’ programs and reclaim our own redemptive love. In this scene, Neo becomes the new man.

Is it all programming? Not yet. But youths are fragile and permeable without the advantage of hard-won life experience. Whether we like it or not, another reeve has spoken the language of twilight to our youths about the future that our Matrix masters have in mind for us. If we can just learn that language and make it conscious, it will have no power over us.Start talking to youths. Hang out once a week at an espresso shop where thoughtful youths like to congregate. Sit with them on a bench or the pavement, drink espresso, and talk. They love it, and so will you. Neo, reaching into the heart. The conscious war against machines, Jesuit mind programmers, and GAOTU’s has just begun.


* As I said in the previous MKzine, “In old occult lore, the language we are looking for is called ‘twilight language.’ Twilight language includes the intentional use of language and images so as to lock on to a twin correspondence in the subliminal mind. The ability to achieve such correspondences via the mass media is a branch of ritual magic whose aim is public mind control.”

** Agnostic reference to the Merovingians (Germanic Franks) who reigned in Gaul (France and southern Germany) from the 5th to the 8th centuries C.E.Unde rClovis I (481-511), the Franks converted to Roman Christianity, initiating the Holy Roman Empire. Clovis and the Franks bound themselves to the Roman Church in perpetuity. Merovingian rulers were long-haired priest-kings and said to be occult adepts.

*** Akashic Record or Chronicle (Ah-KAH-shik) Something like a cosmic videotape library, a vast record of impressions recorded in the Akasha, containing the annals of all human deeds, thoughts, and events in history, and accessible for instant replay depending on the possession of special faculties (namely, clairvoyance) by the one who consults it...As to what qualifies anyone to read the Akashic Record, this is anybody’s guess --but we may assume that the literacy must be acquired somehow, just as it must be for ordinary reading... [D]istorted reflections on the astral plane [are] like reading the New York Times under water. Lacking direct access to the Record, some of us have resorted to transcripts. - John Lash, The Seeker’s Handbook: The Complete Guide to Spiritual Pathfinding (New York: Harmony Books, 1990)

Sunday, June 13, 2010

The“Non-Technique” of Marlene Bennett

Interview by Elana Freeland and featured in the Spring 2004 edition of MKzine

March 12, 2004

Rather than expound on theory, Marlene Bennett (M) asked an ex-client (B) who had undergone severe trauma-based mind control if she would be willing to talk about what her experience of therapy had been like. Insisting on anonymity, “B”was entirely candid about how much she gained from Bennett’s“non-technique.”

E: Would you call what the two of you did “deprogramming”?

M: I call it therapy or healing from trauma.Deprogramming was part of it.

E: How would you define deprogramming, and how does it differ from other types of therapy?

M: For me,deprogramming is trying to turn around anything that was forced as away to prevent a person from getting in touch with their past or remembering their own memories.

E: So it could be ritual abuse, satanic ritual abuse, government military mind control programming -- all of which have in common the intention to make a person not remember, as well as send the person’s mind in a direction other than what they might have chosen --in other words, to take their freedom from them. Does that sound right?

M: I would agree with that.

E: So deprogramming seems to have to do with unlocking and disengaging someone’s intent from another person? “B,”how do you see deprogramming and programming?

B: Programming is all about having something done to you, so it’s dehumanizing in its very nature. It’s about things being done to you and basically breaking you down to the point that you lose touch with that sense of your core self -- it just kind of breaks it off.Deprogramming is not the word I would use because I feel like my whole feeling has really been about letting go of people doing to me and learning to do for myself. Deprogramming is sort of like having the safety and support to know my own story in a safe environment. So it’s more about unfolding who I really am and letting the truth out. Just hearing about people deprogramming other people sounds like programming to me. [Laughs] It’s sort of a contradictory term because the last thing I needed was more being done to me. Plenty had been done to me of a psychological nature already. I wanted permission to be who I was and let my truth come out and have it honored, whether that was around the programming or any other aspect of what was happening for me in my healing.

E: Perhaps deprogramming might be compared to disengaging a clutch or a mechanical process of some sort, so that healing can begin to take hold.

B: I see my process more like a giant ball of yarn that is completely tangled in a big knot.Healing was more about untangling threads that prevented me from getting more freedom of movement within, internally, so that deprogramming and healing didn’t necessarily come one before the other. It was a more circular thing whose order was internally driven. What truth did I need to know at one point in time to allow me to move ahead and do what I could in my life today?The inner process was already inside of me and wasn’t driven from the outside.

E: Perhaps a therapist is like a midwife delivering a baby: the woman delivers the baby, the midwife is there to help the process.

B: Yeah, remind her of things to do -- breathe,that kind of thing. But the direction -- since it’s really all about reclaiming yourself -- has to come from within, and what a relief to discover that thereis a direction in there.

E: What is your history, “B”? What have you been through?

B: Well, I definitely was involved in government programming from about age two through at least eighteen. I never got to totally clear on the dates. As far as how the programming was defined, let’s say I consider myself a military vet without benefits. And of course dysfunctional families are the kind of places where people [ideal for that sort of programming] are drawn from, so I had my own personal history, as well.

E: Was your family military?

B: Not on the surface, at least, but there are military connections.

E: Could your family be described as a multi generational incest family?

B: Yeah, I think that would work. [Laughs]

E: What about satanic ritual abuse?

B: Not so much. I think there’s a little bit,but it was almost the way some people are Christians and go to church only on Easter. So yeah, I was baptized in the blood, but it wasn’t a big part of my family. It was there in the history and so of course multiplicity was in the history. Certainly, there was contact with the military which allows for people to be screened for, then to be followed and tracked. I think that’s how my dad got connected for his stint. He went to college on the GI bill, so I imagine he was followed from that point on.

E: Because of his multiplicity?

B: Yeah, absolutely. Boot camp is programming,right? So it’s a great place to scan people.

E: And the multiplicity is useful for what reason?

B: All sorts of things. It’s about credibility.I also think that a lot of people who are into that stuff -- it’s their own private addiction. Programming is not necessarily that efficient. It takes an incredible amount of energy to program someone to that degree, so they must begetting off on it. They pretend that, ‘Oh, it’s spy games, but it's really them jerking themselves off, in my opinion. It’s not an efficient way to do things, there’s much better ways, but this country isn’t about that.It’s power-hungry and addicted to power.

E: So your programming took place between two and eighteen. What happened when you were eighteen?

B: Eventually, you become harder to control.You’re not at home and people slip away. You leave the program eventually and there’s newer, younger blood, and new people come in to do the programming --there’s a constant turnover.

E: But eighteen is young to let someone slip away.

B: I actually know numerous people who around that time got out.

E: What years are we talking about?

B: For me, that would have been 1962 through1978 or 1980. There might have been a little stuff after that point,but I think it got harder to get hold of me.

E: And they let you slip away?

B: Yeah. People can force you to do things,obviously -- I mean, that’s what this whole thing is about -- and it takes an incredible amount of energy to continue that, and it gets harder and harder.The same thing that made me a good candidate for programming made it easy for me to break away, because I’m an incredibly strong person with an incredibly strong life force. And it’s dangerous to be involved with those folks! [Laughs]So once I had a way to get away --

E: Did you get away through marriage?

B: No. I left home and quit responding to calls because usually people contact you through calls. Then the programming started to come undone. It’s not like I knew consciously that I was being contacted,but the parts of me that were being contacted didn’t respond.

E: Why do you think they weren’t responding?

B: Because we really didn’t want to die, and that’s been my truth my whole life. However effective the programming was, I didn’t hate myself as much as people intended for me to, and that’s why it’s such an inefficient way of doing things to begin with. It eventually comes unraveled. It’s really egotistical of the people involved to think that they can prevent everybody from telling their story the whole time. People are always talking their truth one way or another. Like my mom at the dinner table!She always used to tell all about how things were all dysfunctional and messed up in our home, but she would tell it in a dissociated way. Isn’t it interesting how that little girl came in and threw dirt in Dad’s work shed? She must be mad at her parents’ -- that kind of thing, when it’s all about Dad being at it again. She’s telling the truth at the dinner table in her own way;it never got snuffed out of her. Some things can’t be snuffed.

E: Are you in touch with your parents?

B: I wasn’t in contact with them for many years,and now I am again.

E: How is that?

B: It’s fine. They’re old now, in their seventies. It’s very grounding and keeps me in today. It’s just useful for me to [be in contact].

E: And with your siblings? Were they programmed?

B: Not as much, but yeah there was some stuff that happened with them, so it’s uncomfortable, like the family history which wasn’t so... sweet.

E: Have you come out to your siblings about your process?

B: Not in any big way. Basically, what I’ve said to them is, ‘If you want to know, all you have to do is look inside,’and that’s where I’ve left it. With my parents, if they didn’t have compassion and real caring when I was a little girl, I know now it’s not going to happen in this

lifetime.I’ve seen healing on their paths, it’s just different from mine. My sister too has healing in her religion, but it doesn’t involve knowing her story.

E: Can you have a genuine religious life without being genuine?

B: I think you can be genuine in the present, in the moment, to whatever ability -- I mean, we all have our limitations,so yeah, I think so. There’s ways that programming or any kind of trauma that hasn’t been dealt with leaves personal blind spots. Everybody has blind spots,it’s just a matter of degree.

E: And your other sibling is a brother?

B: I have two younger brothers.

E: And how are they?

B: They’re... I don’t know, they felt like they were part of a whole other family. I don’t know how involved they were in the stuff going on at home. Of course, you’re taught to perpetrate when your dad does, so in that sense... Whether they were taken out to be programmed,I don’t think so.

E: Why do you think you were chosen over the others for military programming?

B: Probably because I’m female, and because of my personality profile. [Programming is] very scientific. I mean, they screen people in the military. There’s all sorts of data involved. If you’ve been tortured continuously for the last however many years, people are keeping track of it, so it’s a pretty well-known process.

E: Did your father prepare you?

B: I wouldn’t say that what he did was to prepare me. I think he’s a perp.

E: Did he abuse your sister, too?

B: Absolutely. He also got victims in exchange.

E: He likes children?

B: No, he actually likes killing women, but he’ll never get caught because he has government connections. I think there are many people like him. They have habits, and then they get documented,and then you’re part of the family. [Laughs]

E: Do you think he was trained by your paternal grandfather?

B: Oh gosh, I’m not entirely sure about this part of the story. I think there was some cult stuff in the family,probably from my paternal grandmother’s family. But because of when he grew up,he was sent away from home to work at a farm somewhere when he was five, and I know some shit went down then...

E: And your mother?

B: She had a lot of sexual abuse in her home.She’s not a multiple, but she didn’t have any choices. My dad was really a very scary person, so she just stayed under water the whole time. He doesn’t have that internal conflict.

E: Was their marriage set up?

B: They met at college. He was on the GI bill --I’m sure he’d already been tagged as somebody useful.

E: So the programming you went through from two to eighteen -- do you think the military rented you from your parents,or did they purchase you?

B: I would say there was a certain amount of extortion: ‘We have pictures, we have this information on you that will get released if you don’t’ -- that kind of thing. Also, of course, I think almost everybody as a child being programmed does a certain amount of maintaining that kind

of extortion-type structure by participating sexually with adults.Children are taken to the big functions -- I think extortion is how they keep it under lock.

E: And that would answer the people who ask,“How could they have kept such a secret all these years?”

B: My answer to that is fear and mass denial,because on some level everybody knows the truth about what’s happening in this country. It’s like part of this country is this really big scary dictatorship,and most everybody knows it on some level. They’re just glad it’s not happening to them and so they keep it down, keep it down by not seeing it. I think it comes out in the fierceness with which certain situations call for scapegoating: ‘Oh, that person’s awful, we’ve got to put their head on the chopping block and execute them. We won’t have any of that in this country.’

E: Like Gary Ridgeway?

B: Those guys are cult guys gone bad, created for a purpose but then go wild. They’re out killing on their own for their own pleasure, when they’re only supposed to be working for The Man. That’s what I’m saying. Even the sociopaths are not under total control. Maybe it helps to create a climate of fear, but they’re rodeo cowboys off the program, man. [Laughs]

E: You are very adept at scoping out an aerial view on how the whole mind control thing works.

B: It depends on where you meet survivors. If you’re meeting people in a situation where things are still being done to them,they’re not really on their healing path yet or claiming their own power, so it’s hard to see the big picture under those circumstances. But I know people who have a sense of the big picture. But for whatever reason, I don’t understand what’s happening with some people for whom the victim role becomes a lifestyle. They may have good reasons not to go there [childhood memories], so they just stay where they are and do the best they can without letting go of that identity.

E: Did you live near big military bases?

B: Yes, I’ve lived near bases. My dad’s work was affiliated with the military-industrial complex. But where does the government end and the corporate end of the military begin? Also, the mob. They all link together, so when are you dealing with which entity? [Laughs]The programming was definitely on bases.

E: You were always moving?

B: We moved a lot when I was younger, but not later. Then, I was moved around quite a bit in terms of programming,doing jobs or being programmed or both.

E: Was yours a typical spy job? Were you programmed for sex, as well?

B: Mostly violence, killing, but some sex, of course, including sex for my handlers. [Laughs] It’s part of what they can do, they’re so power-hungry. Sexual abuse is a great way to strip away your sense of self-worth, which is also part of the programming. But hey,they get off on it, too --isn’t that just a double bonus? [Laughs]

E: Were you programmed for extraordinary memory capacities, too?

B: I don’t think so. I was involved in violence, a lot of times war crimes. I spent time in Vietnam and Central America, and locally I’d be called out. There was a contact at my high school. I was also used for mob jobs.

I think that Vietnam taught them a lot --you know, the dangerous villages and the kids with bombs on them. I think they wanted their own dangerous women and kids [laughs], so there you go.

E: When you were in therapy, how did you deal with all the memories of killing?

B: That took me the longest. I think the hardest thing about it is that I learned to enjoy it by the end. Fortunately, I never got addicted. I was never one of those people who wanted to do it outside because I had a lot of internal conflict, too. How could I deal with the fact that part of me was proud of my skill, and the other part of me really felt that it went against everything inside of me at a tremendously deep level? That was the gist of my [therapeutic] work. That was the big thing that I needed to find some kind of ease with.

E: How did you find peace?

B: [Sighs] I came to accept that I was a human being and that we all come here with potentials. I had another friend who went through a phase where she was fascinated with feral children abandoned and then raised by wolves who would think of themselves as wolves. Thinking about those children and my experience – “our” personalities are so malleable, and there’s something underneath them, too, that can be shaped in so many different ways. I really got actualized in an extremely negative way, in a way that most people don’t experience in this life. That happened, but I also have other potentialsto be actualized. So from this point on, it’s really about choice and what I choose. Those things didn’t feel like choice to me. You really can force someone for a period of time to do things they don’t want to do, that go against their core -- at least if you get them when they’re children.In someways the programmers were inside of me and I kind of had to go outside of my view of what life is in a bigger sense. It’s really about choice, and now I choose to be in this moment.

E: When Kathleen Sullivan, in her book, Unshackled, talked about dealing with the killing she had been programmed to do, she realized that the part of her that had done it could be accepted for the skill and courage it had, and incorporated into herself as part of herself.

B: It’s part of me, it’s me, it’s part of my potential, it’s actually an actualized part of my potential. I have a lot of blood on my hands. In a way, during that time I was a gun that someone chose to fire because they had so dehumanized me that they made me into a weapon. And yet I am a human, and so a human being was there, as well. Given all of that,am I going to go on? Knowing that I have such a strong life force,which why I was perfect for the job, I can put that self to use for me now and say,‘Okay,now I get to choose how I use my skills and talents.’

M: It was painful to watch “B” go through that part of therapy (getting in touching with aspects of having to kill). I believe that it is important for clients to try to take a step back from what they did and honor themselves for what they had to do to survive. Only when the client can appreciate and thank that part of themselves can one truly heal.

B: I went to a conference put on by a ritual abuse survivors newsletter, where all the assassins got together [laughs]and talked. It was really a healing moment to be in a room of people talking about how to embrace that sphere.

There are many vets out there in this world and we’re making more every day who’ll have to deal with the same things. That’s the way it is, but other vets get benefits and I get none. [Laughs] Where’s my pension?

E: All of those experimentees... What was done to you was for a government program and experimental, as well.

B: The horrendous thing about it is that that’s just the surface. For each one of me, hundreds and hundreds of people have died-- experimented to death, tortured to death -- to see at what point they break and then go past it. So many unreported war crimes and torture anddeath go into every American who gets this treatment.

E: Among your memories, did you encounter actual Nazis during programming on military bases, Dr. Black, Dr. Green, etc.?

B: One of the programmers was Dr. Abernacht. I don’t know if this name has ever come up anywhere, and it might be a false one-- he’s a person I’ll remember. I know that so much of it did get transferred over from all of the doctors in the camps during World War Two --

E: Operation Paperclip.

B: That was such a huge time: deals were struck with the Mob and all those creeps from the camps. And what funded it? Sex work and drugs -- still does to this day. And arms. Sell arms and buy more arms to squelch the people we sold arms to. [Laughs]

E: Indeed, you have to have a good sense of humor in order to live in this country.

B: Or a good sense of denial. [Laughs again.]

E: The assassin, the part that kills, brings up the issue of integration. Among therapists are those who think you have to reintegrate and those who think you don’t and can just set up a dialogue among the different parts. What is your experience of integration?

B: Once again, for me my healing isn’t really about therapists and their dialogue about what they’re doing. That’s their problem. I love Marlene because her ego is not in the picture. It’s not about her and how fancy she is with some kind of sick fascination keeping track of how many personalities I have so she can put it in a book -- all those kinds of objectifying behaviors which I’m an expert at. I know an objectifying behavior when I see it because I was the ultimate object. That’s what trauma and programming are all about: the ultimate object, stripping away all humanity. I have integrated different parts, for sure, but it’s been a natural thing and no one did something to me and said, ‘Now, you need to integrate because I know what’s best for you, being that I’m the expert.’

E: Have all your parts integrated on their own,or --

B: I doubt that we’re completely integrated. My healing is about what I need to do to be fully present in my life today. I’m not going to work through every last memory -- there’s been way too much! I’ve worked through what I need to in order to have my life today. I don’t want my story to be only about these sicko’s. No, thank you. I would like to live for some things I want to do for me while I’m here -- what I came here to do, not their agenda.

E: Do you think there are any personalities inside of you that you haven’t heard from?

B: Ohhhh, possibly. I feel pretty comfortable that I’ve looked at the -- Stuff continues to happen, it’s so crazy living in this world, but it’s not so much about some story I don’t know about,it’s more about the context of all of it and feeling a part of living in the world -- you know, that legacy. For example, having this conversation, needing for it to be confidential. Here it is, first from my childhood so much was stolen,then many years of therapy stolen -- a huge piece of my story. It’s not a huge part of my conversation with most people because I would disappear as soon as my story showed up. My story would be so big and flashy that I wouldn’t be there, and I don’t want to deal with that. But then that creates tension and conflict.

E: What does?

B: Not being able to -- It’s basically, are you out or are you not out? Like if I go to a job interview, am I going to say,‘Oh, I was working on my government programming memories these last few years,how about hiring me?’ You’re talking about living in the world, finding work, making connections, being treated respectfully by other people and not having them assume if there’s a conflict that it’s about your history -- that kind of thing.

E: I would imagine that you don’t tell many people --

B: Exactly.

E: -- because a lot of people wouldn’t believe you in the first place.

B: Exactly, you’d lose credibility. So it keeps you silent. Trauma survivors of all sorts experience tension around oppression.Just being out about sexual abuse, you pay a price. It’s a huge secret because it’s so terrifying to people that they’d rather shut you out than hear about it. More than that, I think people can believe it but then they kind of turn you into a freak show just to get some distance. ‘Oh, aren’t you an interesting specimen.’ Then, it’s not so close to them.

E: Do you know many people who’ve been through this in your local area?

B: Uh-huh. I have a network, for sure. It’s amazing how people find each other, but they do. In fact, if you’re going to put anything in, such an important part of healing is to get that community going where you can be -- it’s invaluable. It’s also a great place to get feed back about your therapy. Psychiatrists programmed me for years.You’re in a vulnerable place when you start in on your process and are looking for help.There are a lot of people living on the fringes whose intentions aren’t necessarily so good. It’s important to have community you can check therapists out with and get information about good ways to get a therapist.

E: These people you’ve met locally -- did you meet them serendipitously,find them on the internet, or -- ?

B: One example is the 12-step food program --one person meets another...

E: Is it a wide spectrum -- house wives, office workers, professionals?

B: I tend to get connected more with people who are younger than me. It seems like they sprouted sooner, partly because of the whole therapy movement. People were getting in touch with their stories sooner because they had some place to go with them. Not every body ends upbeing your friend. I have some really wonderful relationships through that connection, but you have to have something else in common. [Laughs]

E: Are there many therapists around your area --

B: No, it’s extremely difficult to get good therapy. That’s why it’s extremely important to find someone with heart who is able to see you as a human being because you need that if you want to do your work -- that’s the most important thing, someone who can see you as a person. I know therapists bring skills to it, but if they can keep their ego out and hold the vision of you as a human being and not a specimen, you’ll get better. Your healing will happen for you. Be wary of people who are doing all sorts of little gibbedy-gabbedy things because they’re into it for their ego and not your recovery. It’s easy to get fooled, especially early on because you’re like, ‘Somebody help me, this horrible thing happened and I want theworld tostop, and everybody owes me!’ [Laughs] There are people happy to do it all for you, and those people aren’t your friends.

E: Marlene, what would you say your ‘non-technique’ is? Many therapists siphon these cases off as fast as they can because of fear of lawsuits, threatening calls, etc. So I know that you must be very committed in order to put yourself in harm’s way to some degree, and yet I understand that you really have no technique. Is that true?

M: Exactly. To begin with, I decided that if I was going to do this work I would have no fear, that somehow I would be guided through it spiritually, and that I would be protected. Basically, I have no fear and will not get caught up in fear. So if I decide to take a client on, I will do it without fear.

E: How do you manage to have no fear? Also, you mentioned the word ‘spiritual.’ What do you mean?

M: I just believe that I’m protected and I believe that with all my heart. I believe there are bigger forces than myself. I believe that, and let it go. I’m here to help human beings heal, and it is my job to help them find their way. When I do a consultation with them, I will tell them, ‘I do not know what needs to happen, but there is a part ofyou that knows what needs to happen.’ Basically, that is their subconscious. My job isto give them the resources to assist the subconscious and to follow the signs and directions and little things the subconscious will bring up toguide them along the way.

E: I see on your wall that you are a licensed hypnotherapist. Do you use questions, listening, and hypnotherapy to give guidance to the subconscious of the person to heal themselves?

M: Probably the most important thing I use is listening. I would say that I listen with my heart and not just my ears. I listen with 360 degrees. I listen on a lot of layers and levels. I try to not have any one idea of what needs to happen. I attempt to be open. I think my experience and education in hypnotherapy are extremely helpful, and alot of times I won’t work directly with hypnotherapy but my experience with it can be extremely helpful in that it can be done in a certain way that the person never actually goes under hypnosis but can help facilitate doing a lot of things to make connections. It can be used in a lot of different ways to help facilitate safety and connections with memories and stay connected with the safety and security of the here and now while a person is also connecting to memories.

E: By hypnosis, you’re not talking about deep trance?

M: It may or may not be.

E: So, “B,” how can you trust someone enough to go under hypnosis?

B: Well, I don’t think I really did much[of that] with Marlene. When I came here, I came from therapy that I considered to be inappropriate and not useful for me. So for a year, I don’t think I did anything. I had to make Marlene prove that she wasn’t trying to get anything from me. I just sat here hour after hour to see if she’d get upset. [Laughs] I talked but if she had an idea about something, I’d say, ‘No.’ [Laughsagain.] Then finally, I guess, she passed my test because I could see that it wasn’t about her making something happen so she could feel good about what she was doing, but it was really about what I needed to do, and it wasn’t just lip service. It’s easy to say that, it’s another thing to have the resources to actually offer that to people. It’s a wonderful gift and I feel very fortunate that I got hooked up with Marlene.

I guess what I’d done before that point that got me out of my difficult therapy situation was that I had made a commitment to myself to heal. This took me through and out of that place where I could eventually see the healing wasn’t happening. I was connected with other survivors and I was able to talk to them about my experience and have validation for the assessment that it wasn’t a healthy place.

[Memories of] people would come up, but forthem to come up it had to be a co-conscious event. I don’t think I ever lost time in Marlene’s presence, as it were. I wasn’t willing to do that andI don’t think it would have served me. I also think I came to trust my system as a whole and realize that even in those awful circumstances it always worked to help me through things, so I just set it to help me through my healing,too. What would be useful about me dissociating so completely from myself that I wasn’t in therapy with as much of me as possible? What healing could really happen under those circumstances? I know sometimes people have parts that come out without conscious awareness of “losing time,” but I think it’s much more useful if parts come out together. Marlene would invite me by saying,‘Do you want to go and look inside?’ That is often what she would ask. She’d start off like, ‘How’s it going?’ and I might say, ‘I’m upset with my cat,’ or whatever surface stuff, but then we’d take time to work with the invitation to look inside and see what was up.

E: [To Marlene] Is that the point at which there would perhaps be a light trance?

M: A lot of times it could be taking time to get quiet and relaxed and go find that feeling inside, and still stay connected to the security of the present. People who experience this kind of trauma are experts at dissociating. I don’t have to do that for them! I don’t have to help them get into a trance; they do that on their own. So me doing it for them is totally counter productive. Having the ability to do it on their own is productive because it empowers them, and that’s the whole reason for being in therapy.

B: That’s something now I can do for myself. If something’s up, all I need to do is stop and go look inside. I don’t have to go to therapy to find a savior. This is such a huge difference. When you’ve had somuch trauma, it gets back to that old rescuer-victim-perpetrator triangle. I’ve been all around that triangle for years. Healing is about letting go of those patterns, and that means I don’t need fixing.

E: And you had started to remember before you ever came to Marlene?

B: Absolutely.

E: [To Marlene] Does the ease with which someone can dissociate reveal that there might be more than meets the eye?

M: No. Everybody goes into light trance easily.

E: I’ve noticed how easily I go into a light trance when I drive -- probably not the best time to do so. But here’s been alot of criticism of hypnosis, especially the old image of ‘You are sleepy, count backward from ten’ -- the absolute power image of a man standing over you.

M: Exactly.

B: That’s programming, not deprogramming.

E: So a counterimage might be, ‘Relax and go to the feelings’?

M: It’s similar. It attempts to entitle a person to be able to stay connected to the feeling of security in the here and now and be able to feel more empowered to try to see their truth. As far as the deprogramming, it’s being able to assist them to connect with their own truth. Sometimes, there are things that have happened, things that have been said and done and forced on them to try to disconnect them from their own truth. My job is just to help facilitate them in being able to connect up with their own truth.

B: Marlene can’t give that truth to anybody, just like I can’t give Marlene her truth. My truth is inside of me. It’s not possible for another human being to do that for somebody else, but they can assist. Most of the time, the programming was melded in with other things.

E: What do you mean? Give me an example.

B: In order for me to be programmable, I had to learn to hate my life force, my love of life. I learned to hate it because it was used against me, so I was ashamed of how much I loved life. If I hadn’t wanted to be here so desperately, I wouldn’t have been programmed. I mean, I’ve done things to stay alive; otherwise, I wouldn’t have been a successful candidate. So you begin to hate the basic things about yourself, and that makes you even more susceptible to suggestions about who you are. Self-hatred is the legacy of all programming, because it’s not safe to be angry outwardly so you turn it inward. Sometimes,there were specific things like little switch points in my mind, triggers --especially at one point in time when I was dealing with a lot of the electrocution that was done as a part of my programming. There were places I traveled to that were just weirdly mechanical and seemed more than just programming. So weird! I remember one time falling into this place where my nerves were just wiped out, shot.

E: You could see an event, but --

B: I couldn’t see it because it was erased -- an erased spot in my brain. That was programming that felt like the synapses were rewired a little bit. I don’t know what Marlene did; I think she just sat there, probably kind of bored. [Laughs]

M: In a situation like that, I just do a little bit of relaxation so the subconscious can go back, connect, reroute, rewire, reconnect, and do whatever needs to bedone to erase anything that’s been said or done to reconnect. There are certain terms that I use...

B: It seemed like you were constantly inviting me to go deep within myself to figure out what I needed to do so that I could be more fully present in my life today. I think you may have used different wording, but basically that was the invitation over and over again because there’s always a new piece of work to be done. And just to have awitness, because there’s so much pain. Just to have a witness there to listen and see the devastation...

E: Is memory work utterly separate from the initial work of deprogramming? There are portions of programming which seem very mechanical.

B: That is such a small piece of my healing. I think people get fascinated [with the mechanics of programming]. It’s fine for them to be fascinated, and yet I don’t think that’s really where the healing happens. I disagree that you need to do deprogramming first.

E: I’ve never understood how memories can be kept separate from deprogramming, since the memories and feelings are, as you say, melded to it.

B: To me, it’s just more objectification. I’m a full human being first and foremost. My “system” did things to survive the trauma, and the reason I was able to become a multiple is because of health and strength, not disease. It’s an interesting thing: the people who aren’t able to split either end up dead or crazy and dysfunctional. [Multiplicity] is the best you can do in hard circumstances. That’s what I did.

M: And for me to take any kind of theory like [memories and feelings being separate from deprogramming] and try to pigeon-hole people in it is just so contradictory to me working with an individual and individual experiences.

B: And it’s not as interesting. I heard someone say trauma makes people all alike, but healing makes us all individuals. I think there’s a lot of truth in that. The trauma itself can be categorized, but if you’re really working with healing, healing is about people becoming who they are or their potential, right? Reclaiming who they came here to be, and letting go of other people’s agendas.

E: Marlene, is there a pattern to someone getting to the point where they can individually heal themselves? Trauma ends up being a pattern that indicates a dysfunction, whereas the healing process has to be individual. Do all clients have a different way of approaching healing,or do they all follow certain specified stages?

M: The healing process can vary for each person, but generally involves memories - understanding how the trauma impacted him or her, getting in touch with the emotions from the experiences and processing the intensity of their energy, integrating a more positive way of thinking about one self in those situations, and learning healthy ways to cope with difficult emotions are general stages.

E: “B” sounds to me like someone who was highly motivated and really working. You must get clients who don’t move as fast or as consciously.

B: [Laughs] I was so angry and distrustful that the trust phase lasted a long time for me.

M: [To B.] I must admit, you were one of my most challenging clients. [Laughs also.]

E: Marlene, you’ve mentioned that you have to turn away victims of ritual abuse and programming in order to protect your time. How big is this problem? It seems huge to me, much more huge than I ever imagined when I first became involved.

M: It is.

E: Are we talking about hundreds of thousands of people?

B: We have to -- enough to really impact the whole psyche of America. It’s there and everybody knows it’s there on some level, and that’s why it’s so powerful when George W. Bush pulls his fear card. Why is that so effective? Why is everybody so afraid? It’s not because of 9/11-- that was an awful event but that’s not why all that fear is out there.

M: Just look at the number of people who have been in the military and are in the military; we’re not just talking about the people who’ve been affected by [invasive mind control] programming. It’s huge!

E: I’ve heard from a couple of survivors that computer and satellite link-ups for individual mind control programming are now less time and energy consuming methods of invasive mind control. This development makes me wonder, how broadly are they are using individual mind control? How deeply has this technology penetrated society?

B: It’s every where, but it’s not every thing.That’s the other part of it. Think about how the mass media functions. When you listen to it, you feel really isolated, give up and think, ‘Oh, everybody thinks this and if you don’t, you’re messed up.’ That’s not reality. Everybody doesn’t think whatever it is, at all! It’s just out there in the airwaves. There are plenty of people in the military and government who are paying attention and working hard to operate on what the surface principles of the country allegedly are -- not a dictatorship, not a military police state. They’re probably the majority, and yet there’s a lot of other people operating by other rules -- and sometimes people are operating in both. [Laughs]

E: I perceive that there may be a lot of good people in government, but they’re being compromised.

B: They’re letting their fear decide for them. And if you think about what it takes to get elected on a national level-- we don’t really have [democratic elections] there anymore because it’s so expensive that you have to have corporate sponsorship to do it. This doesn’t get talked about because corporations own all the media. That’s a type of programming in itself, and everyone is exposed to it. Then you look at the history curriculum taught in public schools -- that’s programming for everyone, too.

E: In a way, human culture itself is programming.

B: It is! But that’s part of the human experience and is not necessarily negative. What’s humane is that our work in this life is to program ourselves and become who we are intended to be. Sure, there’s going to be some social overlay, but if it’s so intrusive that people can’t develop as humans, as individuals, then we’re really robbing ourselves of so many resources. How many things don’t happen in this country because of programming? It costs us so much. We could all be wealthy if we stopped doing that crap to ourselves. The whole world could be so much happier.

E: Can people heal without spiritual principles or spirituality? I have noted that many survivors get involved in religion, but I’m asking about spirituality, not religion, which can easily be a form of programming itself, despite its authentic core.

B: That’s another one of the ironic things about the programming. If you kill someone -- I mean, I’ve been dead several times, right? You kill someone, you go some place, you do something, you get some strength to go on and you get some knowing. If the humanity around you fails you, which for a kid is being programmed and having an abusive home, you break through the surface fabric and land some place. You don’t just keep falling forever, you land some place. So you live with a knowing about that.

E: Would you be willing to share one such experience?

B: You hear people talk about their after-death experiences. I have a knowing deep down inside me that kept me going and was part of my life force, that I had stuff to do after this. I couldn’t have kept going without it, although not on a conscious level, what I call my top side life. But it was always there with me. It’s not so much one experience as apart of being human. It doesn’t mean that a person necessarily believes in a specific God or something, but I think we are spiritual creatures. So of course you become more open to that part of yourself. But would I have gone to a therapist who had a specific spiritual agenda for me? No. I think Marlene’s ability to be here and listen in that deep way is the work she’d done outside of here, but it was never overt [during therapy].

M: I think it’s so important for a person to define [spirituality] for themselves, do whatever it is that is true for them. I also believe that it is such an important part of therapy and something that is very seldom really worked with in therapy because it’s so uncomfortable for therapists to talk about. They do not know how to talk about spirituality in a generic way.

E: -- in the way that’s actually appropriate.

M: Yes.

B: Marlene invited me to find for myself what I believed -- empowered me to grow in that area by saying, ‘So, what do you believe? What’s true for you?’

M: In any situation, I’d invite her – I’d say,‘Okay, I would like to invite you to take a different perspective, a higher perspective. Crawl way up high on a very tall ladder so you see this from a higher spiritual perspective. What would that be?’

In this context, I’d like to talk about possession. It fits in spiritually, and it also fits in regarding deprogramming and doing things to the client. Any time anything is done to the client, it takes away the power of the client; and anytime you do something to the client,you’re assuming that you know more than the client. This will always mean trouble because you can never assume that you know more. When you’re assuming that this person is possessed, if you assume wrongly and you do a de-possession [exorcism] and that happens to be a part of them that has had to fragment off, a part of them that has had to kill, a part of them that has had to be part of a demonic ritual and take on that personality in order to be a part of that ritual, and it comes time to do memory work, you are doing that client a disservice.

B: In fact, it’s really reinforcing the programming to do that. It’s a judgment: ‘I’m in a position to decide what about you is okay and what part of you we need to get rid of.’

M: ‘I know more about you and what needs to happen than you do.’ And that is not okay. That is not helping to empower the client.

B: I heard you getting at this a little bit earlier: Sometimes a survivor is heavily into their victim trance, and so we send out invitations for people to fix us because we don’t want to take responsibility. But it doesn’t matter how beautifully or touching or puppy-love or desperate that invitation is, it is not helping someone to respondto that message with fixing. I think people really get confused by that. What about somebody who’s really hurting? [The answer is:] If you can’t believe that people have the capacity within them, then you shouldn’t be in the business of healing. People have to really believe that, and yet it’s so seductive to think,‘Oh, but just this once I could help them because they’re solost, and they’ll thank me so much.’ It’s really taking away their power. And every person who does it gets built up just a little bit -- an energy vampire thing. Very, very seductive.

E: The whole idea of banishing the one with the memories is deadly.

M: It is, and so sad, too. Here’s this person inside who was willing to take on this most horrendous role in order to protect, and then they’re banished. So now, in order to heal, the client has togo off in the ozone somewhere to recall the memories...

E: Can you recall banished parts?

M: Well, it’s possible, but then it means just that much more trauma --

B: Because the depossession was actually a violation. I was thinking earlier, when things start to open up, you’re opening up to your truth, a natural process. You don’t have to go to someone. If you have safety, you start to remember. Like a plant, if you have enough air, light, and water, you start to heal and it starts to come out. This is a really vulnerable time because you’ve got all your dysfunction helping you make your decisions. Also, multiples are time-travelers and can call on a future self to help them -- they don’t have to believe in anything but that -- just call on your future self to help you navigate through

E: Regarding possession and demons versus memories belonging to dissociated parts, does it matter what you the therapist personally believe?

M: No.

B: I think that’s the whole thing about leaving the ego at the door. If that person comes in with their faith, that’spart of their tools. If they’re a Christian, they can bring that to their healing. It doesn’t matter if Marlene shares that faith or not because it’s not about her and what she believes. But she has a gift of supporting them as they find out who they are. They don’t have to be a miniature Marlene to benefit.