Interview with Kathleen Sullivan by Elana Freeland

Wrapped around me like a shame blanket
stench of old semen mixed with filth
encrusted feces
dried salt trails down my face
eyes red and irritated
ashamed so ashamed
ever ashamed

From “Mary Magdalene” by Kathleen Sullivan



E: You say in your book Unshackled: A Survivor’s Story of Mind Control (Tempe AZ: Dandelion Books, 2003): “Because many of these slaves’ bonds and chains are mental, they are invisible and difficult to prove in a court of law.” What do you think will have to happen in the courts in order to catch up with the criminal technology of mind control?

K: I read that in France they made mind control illegal. That would be a very nice start here.

E: And they have the means to enforce it?

K: Yes. What I keep thinking about is how are we going to prove that someone’s in control? Now, you can prove a person has multiple personality disorder or DID because you can show -- I believe it’s with an MRI -- when the different parts of the brain are active, you can show that their personality is fragmented. But how do you prove that another person is pushing the button? So we’ve got a long, long ways to go on that one.

E: Actually, there’s an article in the Fall/Winter 2003 mkzine by Cheryl Welsh about literally how hopeless it looks in jurisprudence. I cannot imagine how justice for present mind control victims can be obtained under the present system.

K: If you look at a situation where the person is living with the controller and witnesses can testify who have watched the controller manipulate the victim, break them down or whatever...

E: In one of your moving journaled childhood memories you say,

“Pain, isolation, deprivation. Torture, training, total isolation. In a dark, not black, soundless box made of metal. Dad poured his pain into me [via electrical torture]. I became the repository for his pain. Pain kills. I was alone in that box, no one to talk to, no one who cared. NO ONE. He was master of horrors. He cut the kitten open alive starting with its sweet tender stomach. It trusted him. It trusted him and he killed it. He said he was teaching me not to care. Then he put me in the box too small to stand in. I had to sit in it. One side open.
“I saw the lab. I saw my father. The box was my only respite. And he let me decide when to come out again. He kept busy and patiently waited until I decided to come out again -- to HIM. He forced me to choose to come to him, to be with him, no matter what pain he gave me. I became Frankenstein’s lab assistant. His creation. Cold. Uncaring. Wooden. You are what is done to you. Do unto others what was done unto you; give out as has been given unto you. These were Satan’s laws and he was Satan in the flesh. Satan is human pain-giving. Hate hate hate let the whole world hate. Kill kill kill let the whole world kill... all should have to feel as I feel and yet it is never enough. Never enough. I’m always back in the box. With the knowing and the pain.”

E: That’s quite a beautiful piece of writing.

K: [Softly] A child part wrote that.

E: Why do some who have these terrible things done to them not become what was done unto them?

K: This is a touchy subject for some survivors. I think that it’s impossible not to at least on the inside become a perpetrator to some degree. I think the question is whether we act out what’s on the inside. I talked to the head of ISSD (International Society for the Study of Dissociation) -- excuse me, we wrote back and forth -- and he had done an article about when therapists are working with dissociated survivors how they must understand that there are going to be parts of those survivors who are perpetrator parts. Now, that does not mean they act out what’s in those parts. In my situation, I did because my father and the others deliberately created these parts to compartmentalize those feelings and thoughts, to pull out later and use later to hurt other people. I might have done it anyway if they had not been compartmentalized. I don’t know. It’s almost because they kept them separated from the rest of me and kept them controlled, I had the luxury of saying I didn’t do it out of my free will, but had they not done that, I might have been a perpetrator, I don’t know. I know that there is another point: people like my father chose to hurt people. He had a choice. He could have somehow gotten help, but he chose to do it. He chose to put out what, I believe, had been done to him, and there are a lot of people who simply choose not to, and sometimes they pay a great price for it, whether it’s self-harm or whatever. It’s very difficult holding it in.

E: When you say “He chose,” is there an age at which he chose, or are you saying it was a consistent choice on his part? It seems to me the father you describe in the book is a man who enjoys the pain he gives out. Where did he cross over into being like that?

K: (Laughs) Let’s just say I knew a male who had a very strong influence on my dad’s life who was also a sadist. I believe that Dad was physically abused as a child, and there are pieces of information I’ve gotten from other relatives about things they know were done to my father that were really brutal. Where Dad turned and started inflicting it on others, I really don’t know. I’ve talked with therapists who have worked with people like my dad and they say usually by the time they’re an older child, they’re starting.

E: Twelve, thirteen?

K: Even younger.

E: In your opinion, does it have anything to do with being male or female and the different sorts of training that go into the two?

K: I think males in general tend more to inflict outwards and females tend more to take it on themselves, especially with self-mutilation, that’s the big one but anorexia and bulemia, too, or going into one bad relationship after another, you know -- perpetrators who are the husbands or partners or whatever. In my case, I by choice did that. I picked partners who were harmful to me, but then again the perpetrators who were doing mind control used the parts that they had compartmentalized in order to do it to others. I had both inside of me. Again, had I not been controlled, I might have just kept turning it in on myself, although I was abusive to my daughter and that’s a very sad thing.

E: And you do talk about that in your book. It is sad. You can’t get out of this unscathed.

K: No.

E: I too feel that there is a choice at some point that even an individual under severe torture still has a choice [to become a perpetrator or not] to some point, but beyond that point they may not.

K: Right. There is a point where anyone can be broken, and I learned that the hard way.

E: The scene of your Baby Rose’s murder is, for me, one of the two most moving scenes in the book. (The other is your witnessing your father’s death.) Everything that is decent and human in me cries out, How can this practice of child sacrifice even occur? And what is gained by doing such a horrible act to an innocent? You say in the book, “I believe Dad tried to murder my goodness that day, to make me like him.” Is that why this horrible crime continues even today? To utterly destroy the good in human beings?

K: [Softly] Yes. I believe that people like my dad have tremendous self-hatred but can’t recognize it, and so they have to put that hatred on the next generation of victims. I think they hate themselves for having been victimized -- for whatever reasons, they took on the hatred that their perpetrators put on them. They took it inside. They don’t want to own it so they have to put it on the next set of children, the next set of victims -- either that, or I think they would self-destruct because the hatred is so tremendously destructive and painful.

E: So to enact the sacrifice of a baby in front of children being conditioned is probably the most heinous thing that I can imagine.

K: Oh yeah, because it’s controlled and yet it’s also a reenactment. To me, that’s the most bizarre thing of the whole thing. They’re not only gratifying their own selves and keeping themselves dissociated from their own self-hatred, but they’re also traumatizing children for the express purpose of dissociating them and preparing them for future use. It’s insane, it’s total insanity to me.

E: You’ve probably heard the Joan Baez song “Play Me Backwards” --

K: I’ve read a few lyrics but I haven’t really heard the whole thing.

E: -- because she refers to Baby Rose in her song as well.

K: Oh, my gosh. Rose wasn’t my baby daughter’s legal name because I transferred the same name to the daughter that Dad gave me afterward and I want to protect her identity. But Rose is a name that was often used in cult rituals. There’s a singer who came out with a song about five years ago about a kiss from the rose on the grave or something like that -- every time I heard that song, I think my God, that’s straight occult. [Laughs] I go into trance every time I hear it. I realized in a way that roses are a beautiful thing to me because good ones have a gorgeous smell, and my baby’s breath smelled like a flower, and so that’s why I called her Rose.

E: You also describe how your hatred of your father for killing Baby Rose fueled your “Nikita” assassin alter that worked for the federal government. Do you suppose a similar form of abuse is used to traumatize men in Special Forces?

K: I’m convinced of it. I have talked to enough of them now, the traumas that they are put through even during their training to break them down are severe. They’re bullied unbelievably, sleep-deprived, everything possible is done to them. They’re pushed to the point beyond pain. That anger’s got to go somewhere. My husband was pretty much conditioned the same way, so I know from his own experiences, yes.

E: So I wonder how far their training goes. The bullying and pain -- do you think they’re dissociated as well by trauma?

K: Absolutely. The other thing, too is that for a long time -- I don’t know how common it is now -- it seemed like they were choosing men who were already dissociated in childhood.

E: By means of that battery of tests that new recruits take?

K: Exactly. Of course, then they can create alter states in those men that are easily controllable, based on their already having been dissociated. That was my husband’s experience.

E: When you talk about the alter named Dark that internalized your father’s murderous personality, you talk about rage. What is the difference between an alter created out of rage and how altered people become by their own rage?

K: [Laughs] Well, I can’t say that alter was created by rage but again what they did was they created an alter state and then it’s almost like they poured my rage into that part. I’m not quite sure I can explain how they did it. But they tortured me severely -- I mean, there’s torture and then there’s major torture. When they used electricity and kept breaking me to where I had no will left and almost had no mind left, that’s when they would create a part like that. Anytime a child or adult is tortured like that, it immediately creates tremendous rage, a rage that can’t go anywhere because they’re a total victim at that time. So it goes down inside like a volcano waiting to erupt. They know that and so they’ll pull out that alter state later and sic it on whoever. The rage is just incredible.
So when [an unprogrammed person] is in an altered state because they’re rageful, I don’t think there’s too much difference.

E: Certainly people become “altered” by rage.

K: It’s a totally different part of their personality.

E: You say that your ops-trained alter-states were created through extreme torture and then that “Because they were blank slate alter-states, they didn’t have my morals.” What does a blank slate alter mean, and how does it differ from other alters?

K: My dad and some of the other people taught -- I can’t remember the name of that psychiatrist who had the ducks walking after him and imprinting on him -- Lorenz?

E: Could be. I just remember Jolly West and the elephants.

K: [Laughs] What [Konrad Lorenz] discovered was that when the ducks were first hatched, he was the first thing they saw and so they imprinted his personality and actions. What my dad and the men working with him figured out was if they could break a child down through severe torture -- and usually for me it was electrical -- to the point where the child completely went amnesiac, what would happen next is that the part of the mind that would come out would have no memory other than the most basic things like breathing, possibly knowing how to use utensils to eat -- in fact, that’s why ECT [electroconvulsive therapy] is sometimes so effective, it does the same thing basically.

E: Just wipes the slate clean?

K: Exactly. Then that part of the mind that becomes conscious and has just the very basic abilities -- maybe in the brain stem -- that part is going to imprint on what that part first sees, and for me a lot of times it was the men in the laboratory and they were all sociopaths, so my blank slate alter states became sociopaths like them. Very effective.

E: And that was used for your special ops kind of training?

K: Exactly.

E: When talking about your handlers, you mention that they always did a full body search to make sure that your op alters hadn’t hidden any clues or secret messages for you to find back home. What does this say about alters? Are they always trying to get better, too, despite their programming?

K: First, I need to clarify ops versus black ops. There were parts of me that did other things besides killing and really dastardly stuff, and these were the parts that would try to leave a message for me. Those were the parts that because they were not blank slate alter states, they had some awareness of my life. They might not remember where I had lived but they had a sense of who and what I was as a person, as far as my morality and what was important to me and what was not. They had some of me in them, too, a sense of goodness. So those parts knew I existed and knew that I was the one that could make the decisions that might change things, and so they would leave the messages for me. Does that make sense?

E: Yes, and it’s kind of strange, isn’t it, that all these different parts of the self are in there, and that even the ones that have dissociated and haven’t been present for a lot of other things still want to get better. That’s really remarkable.

K: And a lot of them didn’t like what they were being used to do. They wanted out but didn’t have any way out, except to tell me.

E: And when you say ‘me,’ you mean --

K: As the host alter state, the part that was usually conscious.

E: Is that what some call the executive function?

K: I’ve never heard that one before.

E: The executive function is the one that can ‘Hi, how are you?’ at the grocery store and no one would guess. So that’s the one, the host alter.

K: Uh-huh.

E: In 1989, your father was finally indicted on child molestation, after which he slit his wrists. You said that after he got out of the hospital, he went to a conference at Disney World in Orlando, Florida, and then home to spend several days with his childhood family. Do you feel that these two journeys represented a “tune up” or reprogramming effort on someone’s part of your dad?

K: I wish I knew. I wish I could have been a fly on the wall during that time. I have talked to quite a few mind-control survivors who’ve said that when they were to be reprogrammed they were taken either to Disney World or Disneyland. I’m not necessarily saying it happened within the park, but there was some kind of activity going on in those areas. It may be partly because when you go to a place like that, if you’re dissociative, the child parts are going to come out. [Laughs] You are most vulnerable if you’re dissociative when you go to a place like that. It would have been very easy for someone to have gotten hold of my dad, especially as he went there as part of his work. So other people that he was connected to at work knew he was there, and they had been there also. There’s no telling. As far as going to Pennsylvania to visit his family, his parents were dead but there were several male relatives from his age group who are also full-fledged perpetrators who could have done something. I really don’t know.

E: Would you say that all sociopaths like your father are raised by means of ritualized pain and fear?

K: Define what you mean by ritualized.

E: Not necessarily satanic but something that is rhythmic, such as every birthday, every saint’s day, every Christmas, etc.

K: I don’t think so. The reason I’m saying that is again I’ve talked with one therapist in particular who works with sociopaths. She said what really will do it to them is they have a parent that they’re very dependent on who at times will be doting and caring, then will turn around and be cold and put a distance between themselves and the child. It’s the back-and-forth that’s crazy-making, and the instability is the basis for the child becoming a sociopath if that parent is really, really abusive. I was really shocked to learn that. Maybe one reason I didn’t become a sociopath was because neither one of my parents was ever caring toward me. That may have saved me.

E: So you’re saying that with sociopaths it would be that crazy-making back-and-forth, but not necessarily pain and torture.

K: Yes, but there would definitely be abuse involved.

E: Physical abuse?

K: I would say so, yes, and certainly mental.

E: Do you think men tend to become sociopaths more than women?

K: Yes, I do.

E: And that’s because, as you said before, men are more extrovertive, more externalizing?

K: Right, although I have met female sociopaths, and that concerns me that people are not aware that females can also become this way. It frightens me because they get away with it because people don’t know to look for it.

E: After Operation Paperclip, do you feel that the Nazis have continued their Third Reich here in America?

K: Absolutely.

E: And how have they been able to pull that off?

K: Well, by making buddies with the right people to start off with. It reminds me of World War Two when the OSS recruited mafia figures in Italy and several other countries who then came to the US afterwards and set up shop by developing their own operations, then the FBI covered for them for God knows how long and still does. People finally became aware of the reality of the mafia, even though for a while the FBI kept saying it didn’t exist. But the biggest secret behind that is that the Nazis have also been active in our country since at least World War Two.

E: I understand they’ve gone corporate now.

K: Yeah, and they scare the heck out of me. Most of the men who came over through Paperclip are dead, but they have recruited young people who for whatever reason are very strongly into being Aryans. I won’t say who, but there is a female teenager in Atlanta who was going to meetings with other young teenagers who were Aryan skinheads, and there was a man coming over once a week from Germany to teach them the Nazi ways. So even that’s still going on. But my concern is that a lot of the Nazis that my dad was associated with had infiltrated NASA and the CIA and were making major changes for their own benefit.

E: There are several good books out now on Paperclip --

K: Linda Hunt’s is the best.

E: Reinhard Gehlen, SS Nazi in charge of the Eastern Front, was invited by Allen Dulles to convert the OSS into the CIA --

K: I didn’t know that!

E: -- and knowing what I know about their recruitment efforts, I tend to think of them as primarily a Nazi organization.

K: I do, too.

E: Why is it so wonderful and lucrative for the CIA, Nazis, mafia, etc. to pursue mind control?

K: I think it’s a joke when people say that the mafia protects their families. Oh no they don’t! The children are usually the first victims when it comes to mind control, and part of it is the children will keep the family secret. What they don’t remember, they can’t tell. Also, I think because some of these individuals, mostly men but again some women, are just real into control. They are addicted to controlling others. I think the biggest excitement they can ever get in their personal lives is to have a slave. It’s also a status symbol among a lot of them, especially in the US where slavery is illegal. If they’re sociopaths, they get a thrill out of that because they’re doing what’s illegal and getting away with it. Then there’s the fact that they’re able to use us to do illegal activities for them and if we get caught, we do the time and they get away free to use other slaves and continue their illegal activity. It’s like the perfect crime because there’s nothing physical that can connect us back to them. I believe that’s what happened with [Timothy] McVeigh, by the way.

E: In what way?

K: Considering the fact that he was in what was called Elohim, the neo-nazi organization before he allegedly did the bombing, and before that he had been trained as a special ops sniper -- I believe that was in the Army. I’m sorry, it just stinks to high heaven. He had also worked as a guard at Calspan which was involved in some technology that’s used in mind control. The threads are just all over the place.

E: David Hoffman wrote a book about that [The Oklahoma City Bombing and the Politics of Terror, with a foreword by Rep. Charles Key (Feral House, 1998)] and made every connection but the mind control connection.

K: Alex Constantine wrote some about it and got a little braver than most.

E: Yes, he did, and he paid for that bravery.

K: Yes, he did.

E: What are some of the names that Nazis might be calling themselves today?

K: What they called themselves mostly at the meetings that I went to is simply Aryan. They don’t even like calling themselves white supremacists that much because that’s really an external term that’s put on them. They don’t like to consider that they are supremacists; they think that they’re the norm. There are different groups that you’ll hear about in the news, but what people don’t understand is that those are just the small eruptions from the underground. It’s a huge underground and each group has a separate name, and yet they network together very closely. National Alliance is very active in our area and do a lot of recruiting through skä music, their website, one-on-one, etc.

E: We already agreed that the Third Reich has continued in America, but if it’s the Third Reich that I’m thinking of, they are not really going to be compromising with Freemasons, Jesuits, mafia, and other groups presently getting along together for the sake of their great enterprise. Doesn’t the Third Reich want to have top priority in America?

K: Absolutely. They want to rule, that’s the bottom line. They want to be in control and they want to rule the world. Ever since I met these people, that was their goal. They would do whatever it takes to get there.

E: How do you feel they’re doing in America now? Are they succeeding?

K: No, I don’t think they are, although I am concerned about who we have in high office right now. [Laughs] I’m very concerned because of who his father is and his father’s connections to them. They’re just like any other group that wants to have control: they’re going to put their people in positions of power and influence. So a lot of times, because they’ve put their people in certain positions it looks like they’re succeeding, but then I look at all the other people who are not part of their system and it helps me to keep a balance in my own mind about this stuff, because otherwise, honey, I wouldn’t even try to live. If I really thought they were running the world, I’d just check out, I really would because I can’t take that anymore.

E: Mind control strikes me as a tremendous ace in the hole --

K: For now, because not enough people know about it and because through the False Memory Syndrome Foundation and a few other agencies they’ve been managing to keep people in the dark about what’s really going on. But I don’t think that’s going to continue.

E: Why?

K: Because the survivors won’t let it. [Laughs] We’re fed up, we’re tired, we’re angry, and we’re not going to shut up. We’re getting smarter, we’re getting more organized, and they’re getting exposed for who and what they really are. So I’m convinced the tide will be turning pretty soon.
The other thing, too, is that we’re realizing this is a huge civil rights issue and that’s an angle we hadn’t considered. We’ve been so busy trying to educate people about mind control and ritual abuse that we didn’t realize it’s a civil rights issue for us. That puts a new face on it that ought to be put on it, and I think that’s going to help people understand more that this is not about something spooky and eerie and bizarre; this is a civil rights issue that needs to be addressed.

E: I wholeheartedly agree. While reading your book, I noticed that both of your cover jobs were for insurance companies. Do you have any reason to believe the insurance industry is complicit with some of the cults who accessed you?

K: I’ve talked with other survivors and it’s surprising how many of them worked for insurance agencies that were aware they were being used to do things that were kind of odd. [Laughs] One of the companies I worked for -- and I won’t say which company -- had a huge Florida account called Homebuilders that was used for laundering money. I’m not quite sure who it was laundered for, but my guess would be the CIA. Huge premiums, fake policies which gave a reason for the money to be coming in, and I’m not quite sure where it went after that. So even though they were handling me and other people in the department and sending us out on ops, they were also using the company for that. I think it’s going to be harder to do that now because there’s more restriction on how much you can get away with in insurance, so I don’t know where that’s going to head.

E: When you mention the retired Army general you call “Poppa” -- affiliated either with the Army’s ISA (Intelligence Support Activity) or the ASA (Army Security Agency) -- you introduce the interesting idea that alters of a mind-control slave can be used by warring factions, such as Operation Clean Sweep. How does that work?

K: If they know that a person has multiple personalities or alter states being used and controlled, and if they know anything about how to use that technology, they can go into that person’s mind and if they can even talk to just one alter state that’s willing to talk to them, they can talk that alter state into working for them if they use the right techniques and persuasions. It’s not that hard to do. It was done to me and it was done to my husband, also. From what I’ve read about [Lee Harvey] Oswald, I’m pretty sure it was done to him back then, too. And I know from my dad that he had alter states that were also being run by an agency from another country. He had both sides going on, too. I think it’s a game for some of these guys. I think it’s fun for them, actually, just to see how they can get a person to be a double and even triple agent and not even know they’re an agent, at all.

E: I picture them as being from different factions, all jockeying for position; even though they are going along with each other for the sake of the grand enterprise, they’re still competing.

K: Right. They all have their little secret missions and plans, along with what they’ll allow the other groups to know.

E: Because the pattern of an early marriage seems to be typical of many mind control victims, do you feel that your first husband, Albert, was actually chosen for you by someone, given that you were just graduating high school and your mother was about to divorce your father?

K: I’m convinced of it because my first husband’s father and my dad were business partners in the black market. My first husband’s father announced that he was a Nazi immigrant. It’s too coincidental to be coincidental.

E: As though to have a handler --

K: Exactly.

E: Was your first husband ritually abused as well?

K: Ritually, I don’t know, but his father was incredibly abusive mentally and I believe physically. He was a hard-core sadistic Nazi, and my first husband was really messed up from him and seriously hated the man. In fact, my first husband’s siblings told me they had absolute hatred for the man, and for a child to get that way a lot has to be done to the child for the child to have that kind of a hatred when they grow up.

E: Do you think your first husband was aware of this deal? Did he take you as a deal?

K: Yes, I think he was very much aware because as time went on, he got to the point where he was taking me and my daughter to the Aryan meetings, and he was also taking me to a facility, a psychiatric hospital, where I was being reprogrammed. He knew exactly what he was doing. But I also believe that he was under a lot of pressure from my dad and probably some others. I think he was afraid for his life if he didn’t do what he was supposed to do with me. What’s interesting is [laughs] that he eventually went from Aryan to being the pastor of a black church. He turned around completely, so I think once he had free will he made some major changes in his life, and I think that’s wonderful.

E: You say, “I’ve learned the hard way that when one marries a severely dissociated person, one may not marry all of the partner.” What do you mean when you say this?

K: I know with my husband now, because he has alter states that are not the kind of alter states that commit to a marriage [laughs], he has had to keep real tight control on them, frankly, but because he’s older now and has a lot of physical problems, that hasn’t been as much of a problem. I had the same problem. When I found my alter states and they started coming out, they were like, ‘The hell! I’m not going to be married to this guy! I want to be free, I want to party.’ So it was very difficult for both of us -- his were coming out and mine were coming out, and some of them on both sides did not want to be married.

E: [Laughs] It’s like having a whole baseball team married to each other.

K: Oh Lord, yes. [Laughs] If we both didn’t have good therapists who understood how to work with this stuff, our marriage would not have survived, there’s no question about it.

E: I wonder how many people are in that situation and don’t realize it.

K: Oh, probably quite a few, and even when you do realize it, that doesn’t make it any easier. [Laughs]

E: As you admit in your book, your present husband had spook alters, was in Special Forces and the Army for 30 years. Why are you sure he is not just your handler?

K: He was at one point. I have remembered enough about him to know that even before we officially met at work, he had been one of my assigned handlers now and then, especially through the Army. So when I met him at an Aryan meeting and then several years later at work -- officially, consciously at work -- I was drawn to him. That’s that Stockholm Syndrome definitely. So it’s been a challenge because when I connected with my alter states that had known him in the past, I was absolutely terrified. I was like, ‘I have just made one of the biggest mistakes of my life.’ I covered this extensively with my therapist and insisted that he get into therapy with someone who knew how to work with people like him. So we went through a lot of therapy individually and as a couple. The most important thing I learned that I had to do was think for myself and make my own decisions. Even when he wasn’t handling me per se, he was still controlling me because he was from the Army -- oh, and I need to specify that I don’t know that he was ever in Special Forces but he had Special Forces training and he was used to do special ops, okay? He was used to being a controller and I was used to being controlled, and we both had to make some major, major changes. It ended up being a good thing because frankly it was exhausting for him to be controlling me. He never got to have his own life, he never got to have his own fun exploring what was important for him in life because he was so focused on me. So as I got stronger and learned to make decisions for myself, he was able to back off and relax and trust me to make my own decisions. Now, that does not mean that parts of him can’t be reaccessed again to try to mess with me, and I’m very much aware of that.

E: And he is, too, I take it?

K: Not as much as I am, unfortunately. He’s dropped out of therapy because he was having a lot of physical problems and to remember the traumas that created the alter states and deal with all the physical problems was way too much for him. So I’m a lot more on guard than he is, and there are several people locally who do occasionally try to push those buttons in him --

E: Try to reaccess him?

K: Oh yeah. I’ve had to work extensively with him to just recognize that these people are doing this to him. Unfortunately, because he’s not totally connected yet with those parts of him, it makes it very difficult for him to recognize it. It’s scary.

E: That’s amazing that you can just keep going.

K: [Laughs] It’s a lot of work, but I have also really grown to love him, I mean genuinely love him because except for my baby daughter, I never really felt strong love toward anyone. So I’m willing to go the extra mile for him.

E: You said that your present husband Bill was able to discern the difference between a handler and a controlling person by assessing their odd and controlling behaviors, triggering phrases, government connections, and lack of emotional affect. Would you recommend these as criteria to others who get confused about the difference between a controlling person and a handler?

K: I think they’re very helpful but I think it also takes having another person monitoring the situation because when you go into a trance state when you’re contacted by a person who is a handler, you can’t recognize all of that. Until you get away from that handler and sit down and analyze what that handler’s behaviors and actions have been, you can’t recognize it. That’s one of the things I worked on Bill a lot with. After he was contacted, he was in a trance state and didn’t realize what was going on. After the contact was over, I would sit down with him and ask him what he saw, what he heard, do you think this is appropriate, do you think this is normal, he sounds kind of abusive to me, what do you think -- you know.

E: Had you been present at the contact or not?

K: Oh yeah, and I would be infuriated because I knew exactly what they were doing, and a lot of times these people would smile while they were doing it. Oh! That more than anything angered me.

E: And there’s so few ways to expose these people, aren’t there?

K: Yeah, it’s very difficult. Again, because not enough people know how this works, how it’s done. The more people learn about it, the more they’ll know what to look for.

E: They’re often community members, aren’t they?

K: Oh yeah, and again it’s because these different groups will put their people in influential positions. They know how to live double lives, just like my dad very successfully lived a double life until he was arrested. He was an upstanding citizen, involved in several clubs and organizations that were for the welfare of the community. He was a church member, in the choir, led youth groups -- of course -- in church. He was just a wonderful man, so who would ever have thought he was raping and torturing and killing children. Very effective.

E: The sociopath seems like the perfect personality for the double life.

K: Exactly.

E: You mentioned hexagrams in rituals. Why hexagrams instead of pentagrams?

K: I really don’t know enough about that to know why. When my dad ever did mention it, he indicated they were above the satanists who used the pentagram. It was like a step higher in the occult structure and that’s really all I know.

E: When you were with Albert, your first husband, you mention being involved with a church called the Church of the Living Word. Would you caution people regarding churches and other spiritual groups that may be using programming techniques?

K: Definitely. There’s a man named Dick Sutphen who has a website that addresses specifically how churches use mind control on their members. I think that should be required reading for anyone who goes to a church.

E: Coming out of programming, it must be very tempting to people to just jump into a church.

K: Absolutely. I went to so many churches even as I was starting to heal because I needed someone to tell me what to think and do and believe. I had spent my entire life depending on other people to dictate everything to me, so I had to continue finding people who would do that. The hardest thing for me has been to not go to church and to not let people do that. I’ve had to grow up a lot.

E: You’ve kept your faith, though?

K: I’ve kept my faith, I have no problem with that. Part of my problem now is I went to a seminary for a year and a half and in a lot of ways it was a real good experience. It helped me to break a lot of the religious programming my dad had used through scriptures. I learned the real meanings for the scriptures. That was real important. But I also learned how much just through tradition -- like a pastor passing on a tradition to the person that he’s teaching to be the next pastor -- there is a lot of mind control going on in churches now. People don’t even realize there’s anything wrong with it. It’s the norm.

E: Is it intentional mind control or is it letting someone else, an “expert,” do your thinking for you?

K: It seems to be intentional, but the flavor of it seems to be that the pastors do it because they think it’s for the congregation’s good. They seem to really believe that it makes them more in line with what God wants them to do and be, and that’s very dangerous. I think it’s so crucial that pastors encourage congregations to think for themselves. I live in what’s called the buckle of the Bible belt, and it’s all over the place here.

E: You mention people in dark hoods -- I’ve always associated that with satanism. Would you say that your dad was in a satanic cult or was it specifically just Aryan or do they overlap?

K: My dad basically ran his own cult in Pennsylvania. It was a small cult. Later on, when we moved to Georgia, he hooked up with other people who were more Aryan-flavored but even they were still practicing occultism and using rituals to traumatize the children, break their minds, and prepare them for whatever. It all comes together. When Dad was doing the rituals in Pennsylvania, it wasn’t so much Aryan as it was satanism mixed with Luciferianism. He did both. It had to do with his German belief system that had both the good and the bad together, that both were important parts of life. So Satan was important and so was Lucifer. I don’t know how to explain this because when he was doing this, I was just a little girl and all I knew was what he told me.

E: When he was using scriptures, what was his purpose?

K: Most of that was because as part of his cover, he was taking me to a Lutheran church on a regular basis. So he knew that if he used these scriptures in the rituals, then when I heard it in regular church that would reinforce what he had told me.

E: In your introduction, you said that it is a lie when people say that people commit evil acts because they are driven by evil spirits, and yet later you say: “For many years, I’d felt a great blackness inside. Although I didn’t know what it meant, I now think it represented the amnesic barrier between my conscious self and hidden alter-states. I had also sensed for a long time that something evil was in my soul, but I hadn’t known what it was.” What did you mean by this evil if you don’t believe in spirits?

K: Myself. The part of me that enjoyed hurting other people. The part of me that enjoyed inflicting pain on other people. That was the part of me that went way over the line. Again, I don’t know if I would have done it if I hadn’t been controlled. I might have, but because again that part of me was compartmentalized and was only out when it was being brought out by the handlers. But those parts of me were the parts of me that responded because of the pain that had been given to me. They inflicted the pain on other people and enjoyed it thoroughly, and that’s so sick.

E: So that was one of the parts whose goods parts you were able to reintegrate?

K: Right. I don’t know about ‘good parts’ -- that’s kind of hard to say.

E: I was thinking of courage, daring -- that sort of thing.

K: Yeah.

E: That makes sense in the reintegration process and why it’s so important.

K: And self-forgiveness was a big part of it because when I integrated with those parts, I experienced what they had experienced, I felt what they had felt, and then I understood why they became the way they did, and I no longer hated them. I felt compassion for them and therefore for myself. But until I was willing to go there, which was very frightening, because I didn’t know if I was going to come back. I was afraid I was going to become that way permanently as the host personality; that terrified me.

E: Was that early in recovery?

K: About midway; I couldn’t have done it earlier.

E: I’m sure there are other survivors who are terrified of those things in themselves.

K: Of course. Who wants to believe that they have that in them? I have a friend who was sexually abused as a child. That friend is in recovery and has discovered that she has pedophile tendencies inside of her. She’s never going to do it, but she has had the courage to say that it is in her because of what was done to her as a child. I have so much admiration for her. She is, by the way, an advocate for children to the max because she recognizes that (1) it is in her because of what was done to her as a child, (2) there’s no way in hell she’s ever going to allow it to come out with any kids, and (3) she doesn’t want the kids to go through what she’s been through. So she’s turned around what was evil and made it a wonderful thing.

E: Regarding screen memories that are implanted and real memories, how do you know the difference? You mention reviewing the facial expressions on the faces of those in your memories. Were your senses and sensory memory so acute that you could recall such details and therefore know that it was not a screen memory?

K: That’s a good question. By screen memory -- in that part of the book -- I would be looking out a window and a helicopter would be coming and they’d put me in a hypnotic state and make me think it was a tornado coming, so I’d be scared and want to run and hide. At the time, I was so convinced it was a tornado that I didn’t pay attention to what I was seeing on their faces; I was just trying to stay alive. But as I went back in memory and saw the smirks and other details, then I would realize that they had been messing with me. The reason I was able to remember these details is because I was very sensitive to stuff like that in other people because I was so darned insecure about myself.

E: I have heard from other survivors that your senses get very acute under mind control because you’re operating in such a narrow band of consciousness.

K: Right, and what’s really strange about that is especially if you’re under stress, some of the peripheral memory seems to be gone but what you’re really focused on, you will definitely see and remember when it comes up, very clearly.

E: When I was talking about screen memories, I think of themes like the alien motif and trying to figure out what exactly it is. Were screen memories via drugs, hypnosis, movies, etc., implanted in you?

K: This is very strange. I shared in the CKLN interview back in 1997 [http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Shadowlands/6583/project192.html] that I have had two memories of being taken down in a tunnel system into hermetically sealed rooms by people who wore white suits and I saw what I was told were aliens. They spoke a language that I’ve never heard before or since. But then other people in the system explained to me later that they were genetically created test-tube babies. They said that the Nazis had brought that technology with them after World War Two.

E: And you were told this by some of your alters?

K: No. By some of the people who were running me. They were quite proud of it. These were Nazis, they were very proud of it. They said that our government’s been doing it ever since. Now, what part of our government I don’t know. At that time when I met those what I call “children” -- because they look like aliens --

E: Like grays?

K: Yeah. I thought they were aliens, but then later these people explained to me that they were test-tube children and that they’ve been breeding them from generation to generation to become even more that way. So that is another possibility that people may be exposed to them, and who wouldn’t think they’re aliens? -- I don’t have an answer to some of this stuff, all I know is what I’ve personally experienced.

E: But you trust that memory?

K: Oh yeah, it was very vivid. Very unusual.

E: Late in the book, you say, “I told [my therapist] that I was beginning to grasp the powerful connection between addiction to secrecy and seeking employment within an intelligence agency. Over and over, I’d heard that the CIA and other intelligence agencies expected their employees to lie as part of their employment. If the employees couldn’t be honest with their families and neighbors about their employment, did lying gradually become second nature? And how many of them gravitated to intelligence agencies because, having grown up in secretive families, such environments were most comfortable?” Am I right in assuming that part of what you’re suggesting is that many CIA candidates might be chosen because of their family conditioning?

K: I believe so. I don’t think it’s necessary that the people interviewing and testing them would have to know specifically what their family background is, but there are certain characteristics that would show up in the testing, and they go through extreme testing before they even pass first base, really. So I think it’s a lot like it was with people like my husband in the Army that were used in certain ways. I’m not saying that -- it makes it sound like I’m saying the CIA is all bad. I don’t mean to give that impression, but I think that there are certain people and pockets in the CIA who are using this for nefarious purposes.

E: Which makes sense, given that their hierarchic, need-to-know form of organization would protect those elements.

K: Exactly.

E: You say, “My support network has helped me to understand that I was not and am not a perpetrator, because perpetrators commit crimes by choice. I was a good person who was repeatedly forced into the most awful situations. I did what was necessary to survive and remain sane.” Is this the ultimate difference between victims and perpetrators -- between tools and murderers: that perpetrators commit crimes by choice and victims don’t?

K: I wish it was so black and white, that would be very nice. I’m interning in a facility now where I am meeting people who have committed crimes who have mental illnesses, who weren’t quite mentally there when they did those things -- some of them regressed to earlier times in their lives when they were doing it. So that’s the gray area, and that’s the area where there needs to be a lot more compassion in the legal system. But comparing me and my father, I had a lot of opportunities to do harm to others -- and it didn’t even have to be physical; it could have been just plain being mean to somebody -- I chose not to even though it was in me to do it and I knew it was in me to do it. I would find a way to distract myself, even if it meant taking a long hard walk -- whatever I had to do to keep from hurting other people. It was in me and I knew it was in me. I did hurt my daughter badly one time and that was one of those times when I switched and found out I had done it. What was evil about that was I made her feel like it was her fault. That, to me, I’m sorry, I consider that unforgivable. But in general I tried very, very hard never to let that part of me come out on anyone else. My dad made hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of choices; even when he was planning a ritual, he knew he was going to condition and traumatize me with killed children. He had to make probably twenty different choices to set that up. Each choice was a choice of evil.

E: The area of mind control where you’re splitting the personality into a variety of compartments really obscures the whole issue of choice, and now that we know about this technology we’ve got to really examine the choice factor.
You mention that when the flashbacks of porn shoots get ridiculous, you start poking fun at the grotesque memories instead of letting them retraumatize you. Can you talk to survivors a little about the use of humor in recovery?

K: I don’t think it’s possible to recover from these types of traumas without developing a sense of humor. My humor starting out in recovery was very dark, very sarcastic, very cutting. I developed the Up Uranus website back in about the mid-1990s and some other mind control survivors made poems and little songs as messages on the internet for our perpetrators. It was our way of expressing our rage at them. But then I realized that for me it was not healthy; it was keeping me stuck in my anger. Part of the way I was able to have a healthier sense of humor was to find something good in what had happened to me -- not necessarily good at that time but something I could make good out of it now. By doing that, I was able to feel more relief and less anger and my humor became happier. I’m able to laugh a lot more now, and for me it’s crucial. A book came out maybe ten years ago about laughter being healing physically; I think it’s healing emotionally, too. If I don’t have a sense of humor, I’m not worth a hill of beans.

E: You describe your slow reintegration process. Does this mean you see reintegration as a slow process and not a matter of a few therapeutic sessions? Do you believe everyone has to reintegrate in order to “be better”?

K: If a person’s been severely traumatized, whether it’s one time or a series of times or for over thirty years like me, a couple of sessions is just not going to do it. At the same time, I don’t know that it’s necessary for everyone even to go into therapy. Like my friend who realized she had that dark side in her that could hurt children, if they’re aware of it and are able to control it on their own and their past is not affecting their life now in a negative way in their relationships or whatever, more power to them. There’s other ways to heal besides therapy. There are support groups for one. And this is real important for survivors to know because a lot of them don’t have insurance and cannot afford to pay a therapist. It’s a terrible situation right now, with HMOs especially. For someone like me, it has taken a very long time with intensive therapy, I’ve been hospitalized I believe seven-plus times now -- I hope not to have to go in the hospital anymore, it was for major depression, by the way. Because I’ve been through so much -- and there’s a lot I still don’t remember and I really don’t want to because it’s so darn traumatic -- I’m going to be remembering and healing I know the rest of my life, no question about it. Every morning still, I write down at least three more memories that come to me when I wake up. It’s ridiculous.

E: Do you feel you’ve reintegrated most of the alters that were fragmented off?

K: As far as I know, I have. I know that there are some I’m not integrated with yet, but what’s happened is I’ve done work with them to where I am aware of what the memories and emotions are that they had compartmentalized. The edge is off. A lot of the strength of the memories is ebbed now. So some of these alter states that I have have one more issue that needs to be dealt with, a lot of times the issue that caused them to be created in the first place and I’m a wimp [laughs], I don’t want to go through that.

E: [Laughs] You’re hardly a wimp.

K: I feel like it sometimes. So what I do is when I have a month or a couple of months off from school, then I go ahead and I go, ‘Okay, let’s deal with it,’ and I take time off from life and do it. But those alter states are not much of a problem for me per se anymore in that I don’t switch and I don’t have daytime flashbacks like I used to. Being on Zyprexa, by the way, has been very, very helpful with the flashbacks and nightmares. Zyprexa is an anti-psychotic medication, but it also cuts down on flashbacks and nightmares. There’s another one called Risperdal. I had a problem with tremors with the Risperdal, that was bad, but the Zyprexa works great. Medications are helpful. I’ve taken several, I’m on Wellbutrin for depression and it’s very helpful.

E: Do you plan to stay on them or do you try to get off of them?

K: No, I plan to stay on them. I also take Ativan for anxiety, but only take it when I have to. Zyprexa and Wellbutrin are not habit-forming; Ativan is. Go back to the question.

E: Do you believe everyone has to reintegrate in order to “be better”?

K: “Better”? No. Now, there are some trauma survivors who have alter states that were not developed out of ritual abuse or mind control. They were developed out of other traumas. If those survivors can find a way to be at peace with their alter states and it not affect their lives in a negative way, more power to them. The problem, though, is when you have alter states that were developed specifically for the sake of controlling you and using you to do illegal or immoral activities -- it is an issue because it can happen again. This stuff is so... It’s done in such an assembly line fashion now that a survivor can move clear across the country; they might have certain behaviors or even jewelry that identifies their history that they don’t realize identifies it -- they might have the mole markings on certain parts of their body that identifies them -- and a perpetrator who doesn’t know them from Jack might come up to them, recognize something on them, and therefore know what their triggers are. It’s dangerous. And that’s why I think it’s important even if we don’t integrate -- like I’m not fully integrated, but I’m co-conscious, I’m aware of what these other alter states have experienced enough to know what their buttons are, what their triggers are, so that if someone does come up to me now and start that crap, I know who they are and I know what they’re up to. It doesn’t get hold of me, it doesn’t trance me out to where I’m under their control. Now, I’m not saying it can’t happen, but I’ve also done a lot of EEG biofeedback which has been very helpful in not dissociating.

E: By showing portions of your brain activated?

K: What it did was -- and this can be very triggering for survivors, it was very frightening for me to do because they hooked up electrodes to my scalp -- [laughs] that brought back memories! But what I did was I would look at a computer screen. It helped me to stay more in the front part of my brain, which is where the beta brain waves are -- the conscious, cognitive part of my brain. That way, I was less likely to trance out. I don’t do it much now, but I used to be able to sit in a room and pick out a spot on the far wall, a little tiny dot, stare at it, and the whole room would go away. I dissociated very easily and frankly, dissociation was my drug of choice. I didn’t need anything else, although I used to like marijuana very much and if it were legal, I’d probably smoke it now. But dissociation was my drug of choice. It was an addiction. It was a way to escape anything that was unpleasant. So I’ve had to work very, very hard at staying present when things are unpleasant or scary or frightening or embarrassing, and to not look at that little dot on the floor or wall and zone out.

E: And that’s important for other survivors to do as well.

K: I think it’s crucial. I don’t think I would have gotten to the point where I’m not a victim, at least as far as I know, had I not really worked on staying present.

E: How do you think perpetrators see your “coming out”? I know you’re careful about certain names. Do you feel that keeping silence on those names will save your life? How do you live with knowing that they don’t like what you’re doing?

K: I’m blunt about this: the people I’m most afraid of are the people from Cobb County, Georgia. They are extremely dangerous, they’re Aryans, murder is no problem for them. They’ve made waves here for me. There are several people who are allegedly from the CIA Directorate of Operations who made life miserable for me in 1997. There are people who for whatever reason seem truly terrified that I might say things about them. That’s their problem. My concern is to get information out in a way that’s going to help people to heal and help people to recognize what’s going on with survivors. I don’t give a flip about those perpetrators much anymore. I used to focus a lot on them, but then that kept me from healing. What I do now is -- like I name my father, but that’s partly because I have my stepmother’s permission and partly because I know for a fact that he hurt a lot of children, and I know that there may be some people who will see his face in the picture in the book and understood who and then they’ll know why. They deserve to know that. A lot of people that I could name I’m not naming, and it’s not because so much I’m afraid of them as it is I’m realizing that by naming them it narrows down people’s attention on them to where they’re not aware that there’s a lot of other people out there like them. So that’s why I’m trying to put more information in the book about their methods and their mentality, their types of behaviors, so that people won’t focus on one person and not realize that there’s other people doing the same stuff.

E: At the beginning of this interview, I quote from your “Mary Magdalene” poem that you crossed out in your manuscript. What are you going to do with all those poems you’ve crossed out?

K: [Laughs] Gordon Thomas put out a book about Mary Magdalene and he sent me a copy. He’ s been very helpful and given me the courage to put my book out, by the way. He hooked me up with my publisher. I think he’s a wonderful man. I read the book and realized how much that character was similar to what I had been growing up and even as a young adult, and it helped bring up those feelings that I put into the poem. But then I was afraid to put it in the book because I don’t want to offend certain groups of people to where they won’t be willing to learn from what else is in the book. It’s hard to know what to do with it sometimes. I have other poetry too that I think would be very useful -- I’ll do something with it.

E: Last comments?

K: Again, I think we need to focus on mind control being a civil rights issue. There are several other pro-survivor groups that are now making the same decision and we’re getting more organized together. We’re realizing this is the way we’re going to have to present it to get the attention we need because as long as we keep calling it ‘mind control’ or ‘ritual abuse,’ it’s too easy for people to put it in a little slot and keep it there.

E: Is anyone writing about that, the civil rights aspect?

K: There’s one group, RAT, Jeanne Sarson and Linda MacDonald in Canada. I believe they’re even going to be addressing the UN pretty soon about it. There’s a movie called Mississippi Burning and a song at the end of it called “Walk On,” a group of black people singing it. Every time I hear that song, I break down and cry like a baby because I realize that even though the song was about black civil rights issues, it applies directly to us. We have to keep on walking on, no matter what happens, no matter what obstacles are in our way, no matter who gets potshots and gets hurt and killed along the way that we love dearly. We’ve got to keep on going and not give up. See, the perpetrators think we’re going to, and so if we do, they win. We can’t let them win, and that’s the bottom line for me. Until I can’t write anymore or talk anymore, I’m going to keep communicating this stuff. I have committed my life to doing this, and I feel a great joy now because I’ve made that decision. I went through several years of stark raving fear because I knew that there might be a great cost for doing this, but then I realized that if I don’t do it, I’m going to spend the rest of my life being miserable because I could have done it and didn’t. As soon as I made the decision, I am at such peace now and feel such joy. It’s really exciting.

E: Thank you so much, Kathleen. I appreciate the time and all the love you’ve poured into quite a gift to people when your book comes out. Could you again say the name of the book?

K: Unshackled: A Survivor’s Story of Mind Control, put out by Dandelion Books.